We see it all the time.. Nonbelievers say that the prophecies are so vague, that they are self fulfilling... They say that "of course that prophecy was going to be fulfilled"...
Yet a mathematician actually calculated, like a Powerball Jackpot, how likely it was that the prophecies of Messiah would be fulfilled....
You can watch the first 10 minutes of this video to understand the methods these calculations were made.
Turns out that these "vague" and "self fulfilling" prophecy, have the odds of less then any jockpot ever invented...
Whats the probability of a man actually fulfilling the prophecies of the Messiah? Its 1 in trillion*trillion*trillion*trillion*trillion.. Less then that... Its essentially 0
For ANY man to fulfill the prophecy of the Messiah.. The odds tells us, these prophecies (that were proven to be written pre-Jesus: Dead Sea Scrolls), should have just died off with impossible odds...
And then Jesus, and even his historically accepted rolls, tell us Jesus hit that jackpot... He is the Messiah...
So what does that Mathematician conclude.
""Any man who rejects Christ as the Son of God is rejecting a fact proved perhaps more absolutely than any other fact in the world."~Peter Stoner
But dont trust me, I challenge any atheist, to study every prophecy... Every single one... And try to make sense of them all in its entirety.. Come back, and share with us a coherent explanation of how you make sense out of the entire picture... Not just one prophecy you pick apart... Make sense of them all...
Jackpot: the probability of the prophecy.
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JoeyKnothead
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Post #2
From the OP:
The next best fact I know is that you got you one proud asserter, and what a shame it is your asserter lacks it in the showing.
You make claim upon claim, devoid of evidence, and plead for us to accept your unfounded assertions. That's as goofy a notion as trying to convince folks God's got him an opinion on any of this.
So then we can conclude there's essentially 0 chance of somebody being them the Messiah....
Whats the probability of a man actually fulfilling the prophecies of the Messiah? Its 1 in trillion*trillion*trillion*trillion*trillion.. Less then that... Its essentially 0
I ain't even accepted the dude existed, much less to have given him up carpentry for bakery....
And then Jesus, and even his historically accepted rolls
Best fact I know is the pretty thing's a-tryin' to hoard her up all the pretty all to herself.So what does that Mathematician conclude.
""Any man who rejects Christ as the Son of God is rejecting a fact proved perhaps more absolutely than any other fact in the world."~Peter Stoner
The next best fact I know is that you got you one proud asserter, and what a shame it is your asserter lacks it in the showing.
Trust me, I don't trust you.But dont trust me...
As I challenge you trust my prophecy... You're not never gonna show you speak truth in this regard.I challenge any atheist, to study every prophecy...
Kinda hard to make sense of the senseless. In part or whole.Every single one... And try to make sense of them all in its entirety..
My making 'sense of it', is you ain't doing you none of it.Come back, and share with us a coherent explanation of how you make sense out of the entire picture... Not just one prophecy you pick apart... Make sense of them all...
You make claim upon claim, devoid of evidence, and plead for us to accept your unfounded assertions. That's as goofy a notion as trying to convince folks God's got him an opinion on any of this.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin
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rikuoamero
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Re: Jackpot: the probability of the prophecy.
Post #3[Replying to post 1 by Tart]
Hmm...I remember debating these claims this Stoner person makes on a different thread. I'll have to look for it, but what I do remember of the earlier debate is me pointing out that the "prophecies" being spoken of are so vague (such as the one about being betrayed by a friend) that they can apply to literally anyone, or just plain wrong (such as the one supposedly being about Jesus being born at Bethlehem actually speaking about a clan and not a town...) or pointing out that what Stoner (and by extension the OP) ignore are the rest of the verses they cite, such as them citing Zechariah 11 and ignoring what it says about the shepherd being foolish.
Oh and let's not forget the major problem of this mathematics professor not producing any actual mathematics. He just gives what appears to me to be completely arbitrary probabilities and produces no work at all to back them up.
Hmm...I remember debating these claims this Stoner person makes on a different thread. I'll have to look for it, but what I do remember of the earlier debate is me pointing out that the "prophecies" being spoken of are so vague (such as the one about being betrayed by a friend) that they can apply to literally anyone, or just plain wrong (such as the one supposedly being about Jesus being born at Bethlehem actually speaking about a clan and not a town...) or pointing out that what Stoner (and by extension the OP) ignore are the rest of the verses they cite, such as them citing Zechariah 11 and ignoring what it says about the shepherd being foolish.
Oh and let's not forget the major problem of this mathematics professor not producing any actual mathematics. He just gives what appears to me to be completely arbitrary probabilities and produces no work at all to back them up.
Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"
I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead
Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense
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FarWanderer
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Re: Jackpot: the probability of the prophecy.
Post #4[Replying to post 1 by Tart]
The video is absurdly naive at best, or wilfully dishonest at worst. The probability that SOMEBODY would be born in Bethlehem around 1 A.D. is 100%. We should expect a lot more than one birth at that place and time, in fact. Then if ONE of these people, being aware of these prophesies, decided they wanted to be the "Messiah" they could SEEK to fulfill these prophesies. You see, when people KNOW of a "prophesy" and have the means to "fulfill" it, then the chance of it occuring is not simply random, as the people in the video would erroneously have you believe.
So that's the problem of prior knowledge. There's also an even bigger problem of the author's reliability.
The men in the video just assume everything in the New Testament is true because a handful of historians suggested a man named Jesus was crucified. It's a ridiculous leap of logic. Even if we accept that the existence of Jesus is proven, it confirms none of the biblical details whatsoever. For example we don't even know if Jesus really was born in Bethlehem in the first place.
No matter how "improbable" a set of circumstances are, if the story-teller just makes things up then they can have the most improbable events "occur".
Then there's the problem of unfulfilled prophesies. Even low-probability bets are BOUND to hit if you make enough of them (especially if they are vague prophesies), so if there are a large number of misses, then a handful of hits is to be expected, and not evidence for anything special.
And not a SINGLE ONE of these 3 issues is addressed in the video. Instead they try to impress with big numbers of silver coins covering the state of Texas. It's so off the mark that I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
The video is absurdly naive at best, or wilfully dishonest at worst. The probability that SOMEBODY would be born in Bethlehem around 1 A.D. is 100%. We should expect a lot more than one birth at that place and time, in fact. Then if ONE of these people, being aware of these prophesies, decided they wanted to be the "Messiah" they could SEEK to fulfill these prophesies. You see, when people KNOW of a "prophesy" and have the means to "fulfill" it, then the chance of it occuring is not simply random, as the people in the video would erroneously have you believe.
So that's the problem of prior knowledge. There's also an even bigger problem of the author's reliability.
The men in the video just assume everything in the New Testament is true because a handful of historians suggested a man named Jesus was crucified. It's a ridiculous leap of logic. Even if we accept that the existence of Jesus is proven, it confirms none of the biblical details whatsoever. For example we don't even know if Jesus really was born in Bethlehem in the first place.
No matter how "improbable" a set of circumstances are, if the story-teller just makes things up then they can have the most improbable events "occur".
Then there's the problem of unfulfilled prophesies. Even low-probability bets are BOUND to hit if you make enough of them (especially if they are vague prophesies), so if there are a large number of misses, then a handful of hits is to be expected, and not evidence for anything special.
And not a SINGLE ONE of these 3 issues is addressed in the video. Instead they try to impress with big numbers of silver coins covering the state of Texas. It's so off the mark that I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
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rikuoamero
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Re: Jackpot: the probability of the prophecy.
Post #6[Replying to post 3 by rikuoamero]
viewtopic.php?p=887177#887177
I notice that the user who posted them never replied to my rebuttal, even after repeated requests from myself to do so...
I found where I discussed the "prophecies" and tore them to shreds.Hmm...I remember debating these claims this Stoner person makes on a different thread. I'll have to look for it
viewtopic.php?p=887177#887177
I notice that the user who posted them never replied to my rebuttal, even after repeated requests from myself to do so...
Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"
I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead
Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense
Post #7
Did you not read what i challenged to debate about?... Move it back...dianaiad wrote: Moderator Action
The OP has no debate question, and is preaching.
Moved to Random Ramblings. Please review the Rules and Tips on starting a debate topic.
"I challenge any atheist, to study every prophecy... Every single one... And try to make sense of them all in its entirety.. Come back, and share with us a coherent explanation of how you make sense out of the entire picture... Not just one prophecy you pick apart... Make sense of them all..."
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benchwarmer
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Post #8
That's not a debate question, that's a pointless challenge.Tart wrote:Did you not read what i challenged to debate about?... Move it back...dianaiad wrote: Moderator Action
The OP has no debate question, and is preaching.
Moved to Random Ramblings. Please review the Rules and Tips on starting a debate topic.
"I challenge any atheist, to study every prophecy... Every single one... And try to make sense of them all in its entirety.. Come back, and share with us a coherent explanation of how you make sense out of the entire picture... Not just one prophecy you pick apart... Make sense of them all..."
That's like me writing a bunch of drivel and then challenging everyone to examine EVERY post I've made on this site and make sense of them ALL.
Post #9
No this is about Christianity, and whether or not it is truly the Word from an All Knowing God... For ANY true prophecy, it suggest knowledge of the future.. This implies an all knowing God...benchwarmer wrote:That's not a debate question, that's a pointless challenge.Tart wrote:Did you not read what i challenged to debate about?... Move it back...dianaiad wrote: Moderator Action
The OP has no debate question, and is preaching.
Moved to Random Ramblings. Please review the Rules and Tips on starting a debate topic.
"I challenge any atheist, to study every prophecy... Every single one... And try to make sense of them all in its entirety.. Come back, and share with us a coherent explanation of how you make sense out of the entire picture... Not just one prophecy you pick apart... Make sense of them all..."
That's like me writing a bunch of drivel and then challenging everyone to examine EVERY post I've made on this site and make sense of them ALL.
The Challenge is simple... It is for atheist to have a coherent explanation for the prophecies... For their existence, who wrote them and why, and for there fulfillment... I understand you guys can take any one prophecy, and attempt to pick it apart, but anyone could do that...
What we want is for an coherent explanation for how this can make sense without an All Knowing God...
What we know is that prophecy has fallen in place, like pieces to a puzzle. It has fallen in place nearly perfectly, like Jesus fulfilling the law... We can study Christianity, Old Testement and New, and it makes sense, by an All knowing God...
What i want atheist to do is make sense out of Christianity, in its entirety, without an All Knowing God.. Like why did many prophets prophecy ANYTHING at all? How come they all point to a Messiah? Do you guys think all the prophets collaborated with each other? Made up a bunch of nonsense for a future beyond their life span, that they never saw?... Why would any one person do that? Let alone a group of people, who lived in different times, not knowing one another, pointing to the same thing?
It is an established fact that these were written before Jesus existed.. So how do you suggest Jesus fulfilled them? (and i assume, at least partly, that Jesus is historical becuase there has been given no good reason or good evidence Jesus isnt historical)
How do you make sense out of the big picture?
Last edited by Tart on Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:04 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Re: Jackpot: the probability of the prophecy.
Post #10The point is, is that you guys are not giving the prophecies the proper respect, and that is what i want you to do... I want you to give them the proper respect to at least seek to understand their existence... Because you are not even making sense of them, and thats what i want you to do, not just rejecting them but making sense of rejecting them...
I mean these prophecies are bold claims, like this morning i was reading Jeremiah 31...
38 “The days are coming,� declares the Lord, “when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.�
This verse is talking about Jerusalem, and thats a bold claim... Written over 2000 years ago claiming that Jerusalem will never be uprooted or demolished... That the city will survive all of human history... How many cities from back then are no longer anything? Probably most of them.... But we have bold prophecies, like this, that are clearly fulfilled...
The explanation is simple, the only reaosnable coherent explanation is it came from an "All Knowing" God...
Or do you have a better explanation?
I mean these prophecies are bold claims, like this morning i was reading Jeremiah 31...
38 “The days are coming,� declares the Lord, “when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.�
This verse is talking about Jerusalem, and thats a bold claim... Written over 2000 years ago claiming that Jerusalem will never be uprooted or demolished... That the city will survive all of human history... How many cities from back then are no longer anything? Probably most of them.... But we have bold prophecies, like this, that are clearly fulfilled...
The explanation is simple, the only reaosnable coherent explanation is it came from an "All Knowing" God...
Or do you have a better explanation?
