Is there ANY scientific evidence could show there is no God?

[Danmark]

Is there any scientific evidence that, if discovered, would prove to a Christian that the God of the Bible is man made and does not correspond to reality? In other words, is there anything you can imagine that would demonstrate there is no God?

Many Christian apologists appeal to science to support their belief in the Christian God; however, I suggest those apologists do not actually accept any scientific evidence that might suggest this 'God Story' is a hoax. I would like to test this hypothesis by asking if there is anything science could report that would convince believers in the God of the Bible that the Biblical claims about God are false?

[kcplusdc@yahoo.com]

Although I can not claim to have checked out their thought process, my understanding is that believers have used scientific evidence to disprove to themself that the bible is not factually perfect. Enough so that thier world view shifted to atheist or other non theistic branch of thought.

A less specific God formulation would be harder to approach scientifically.

[Still small]

What do you say to the scenario where Adam can choose evil but won't? (Much like how God can override free will but won't) That means no evil AND real love, it's sounds like a win-win. Why didn't God create this version of event instead?

In order to have the ability of contrary choice or free will, one must be able to choose either (a) or (b). If he is created with only one thing from which to freely choose, is that really free choice? I believe, though, that God gave Adam every incentive to choose His way but Adam succumbed to the deception of the serpent. (BTW - just as a side note, the Hebrew word translated as ‘serpent’ does not necessarily mean a snake.) Also, God had already prepared a way of redemption should Adam choose unwisely.

What is it, that you believe “God logically must do�?

Ultimately, a perfect God must either not create at all, or create idential copies of God. As perfection can only create nothing but perfection.

But God was not creating other ‘gods’, He wanted to create ‘man’. I’m uncertain as to why you believe your last statement, “As perfection can only create nothing but perfection� (emphasis added) to be true. Surely God has the ability to create anything He so chooses in order to meet the purpose of His plan.

Have a good day!
Still small

[Bust Nak]

In order to have the ability of contrary choice or free will, one must be able to choose either (a) or (b). If he is created with only one thing from which to freely choose, is that really free choice?

He can still freely choose either, he just won't.

I believe, though, that God gave Adam every incentive to choose His way but Adam succumbed to the deception of the serpent.

The obvious fix was to make Adam smarter than the serpent, being smart does not infinge on free will.

But God was not creating other ‘gods’, He wanted to create ‘man’.

Well the man he created would have to be perfect in every sense, whether you want to call such perfect beings gods or not is semantics.

I’m uncertain as to why you believe your last statement, “As perfection can only create nothing but perfection� (emphasis added) to be true. Surely God has the ability to create anything He so chooses in order to meet the purpose of His plan.

He has the ability to create anything he chooses, but he won't because he is perfect, anything less than clone of himself would be by definition, imperfect. A creator's whose creation is imperfect isn't a perfect creator.

[For_The_Kingdom]

He has the ability to create anything he chooses, but he won't because he is perfect, anything less than clone of himself would be by definition, imperfect. A creator's whose creation is imperfect isn't a perfect creator.

Wait a minute, if God has the ability to create milk that won't spoil, how does it follow that God is imperfect if he creates milk that will spoil?

Non sequitur.

[Bust Nak]

Wait a minute, if God has the ability to create milk that won't spoil, how does it follow that God is imperfect if he creates milk that will spoil?

1) if X that is comparatively worse than an alternative then X is imperfect. (premise 1)
2) milk that will spoil is worse that milk that won't spoil. (premise 2)
3) milk that will spoil is imperfect. (from 1 and 2)
4) A creator that creates something imperfect, is worse than a creator that creates only perfection. (premise 3)
5) A creator that creates something imperfect, is imperfect. (from 1 and 4)
6) God creates milk that will spoil. (premise 4)
7) God creates something imperfect. (from 5 and 3)
8) God is imperfect. (from 5 and 7)

Presumably you object to some of these premises?

[Still small]

1) if X that is comparatively worse than an alternative then X is imperfect. (premise 1)
2) milk that will spoil is worse that milk that won't spoil. (premise 2)
3) milk that will spoil is imperfect. (from 1 and 2)
4) A creator that creates something imperfect, is worse than a creator that creates only perfection. (premise 3)
5) A creator that creates something imperfect, is imperfect. (from 1 and 4)
6) God creates milk that will spoil. (premise 4)
7) God creates something imperfect. (from 5 and 3)
8) God is imperfect. (from 5 and 7)

Presumably you object to some of these premises?

My objection is to #4 (premise 3) “A creator that creates something imperfect, is worse than a creator that creates only perfection.�.
What you have stated is an exclusive whereas it is possible for a creator who is capable of creating perfection to also create something imperfect if the creator so desires. Therefore statement #4 (premise 3) would be better stated as -
“A creator that can only create something imperfect, is worse than a creator that can also create perfection.�
and thus -
5) A creator that can only creates something imperfect, is imperfect. (from 1 and 4)
6) God creates milk that will spoil. (premise 4)
7) God creates something imperfect. (from 5 and 3)
8) God, if He is ONLY capable of creating something imperfect, is imperfect. (from 5 and 7)�

One must also consider what defines ‘perfect’. My definition would be ‘something perfect is that which exactly meets the requirements of its desired purpose�*. What was God’s desired purpose?

Have a good day!
Still small.

* perfect -
4. Completely suited for a particular purpose or situation: She was the perfect actress for the part - (American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2016 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.)

[Bust Nak]

What you have stated is an exclusive whereas it is possible for a creator who is capable of creating perfection to also create something imperfect if the creator so desires.

Well, is it actually possible? You are trying to tell me someone who sometimes creates imperfection is as good a creator as one always without fail, produce perfection.

something perfect is that which exactly meets the requirements of its desired purpose

And if you go down this route, you are left with having to justify how it is desirable for milk to spoil.

[Still small]

Well, is it actually possible? You are trying to tell me someone who sometimes creates imperfection is as good a creator as one always without fail, produce perfection.

What I am telling you is “someone who sometimes creates imperfection� if He chooses to do so for a specific purpose “is as good a creator as one always without fail, produce perfection.�

something perfect is that which exactly meets the requirements of its desired purpose

And if you go down this route, you are left with having to justify how it is desirable for milk to spoil.

How is it desirable for milk to spoil? Well, let’s have look at what causes milk to spoil. Milk spoils when bacteria converts the lactose into glucose and galactose, which results in the production of lactic acid along with breaking down other milk components. This lactic acid is what produces the smell and sour taste. So why did God design milk that can break down? Well, this is exactly the same process performed by ‘good’ bacteria in the gut to make the various milk components more readily absorbed. When one considers that milk is produced for feeding babies suckling on their mothers, there was, theoretically, no time for exposure to foreign bacteria. As humans are the only creatures that, as a whole, continue to consume milk beyond weening, they have developed methods for storage. These include pasteurisation and refrigeration plus developed products such as cheese, yogurt, etc, which also require milk to ‘breakdown’ during processing. (The idea that cats continue to drink milk is somewhat of a myth, as most cats, after weening, are lactose intolerant. While some may like the taste, it causes all sorts of problems in their gut.)
Therefore, the reason we have milk that ‘spoils’ is because we are keeping it longer for purposes beyond that for which it was originally designed. That being the immediate suckling of babies. If milk didn’t breakdown, we could not reap the full nutritional benefits.

Have a good day,
Still small

[Bust Nak]

What I am telling you is “someone who sometimes creates imperfection� if He chooses to do so for a specific purpose “is as good a creator as one always without fail, produce perfection.�

That's moot since "someone who sometimes chooses to create imperfection for a specific purpose" IS someone who sometimes creates imperfection.

Perhaps more to the point, if something is perfectly fit for the specific purpose it was created for, can it still be said that it is imperfect?

How is it desirable for milk to spoil? Well, let’s have look at what causes milk to spoil. Milk spoils when bacteria converts the lactose into glucose and galactose, which results in the production of lactic acid along with breaking down other milk components. This lactic acid is what produces the smell and sour taste. So why did God design milk that can break down?

It is the best that God, as an imperfect creator, could do.

Well, this is exactly the same process performed by ‘good’ bacteria in the gut to make the various milk components more readily absorbed...

A prefect creator would be able to produce only good bacteria that does not sour milk. Alternatively a perfect creator would be able to produce milk that only breaks down inside guts and no where else. Why stop there, a perfect creator would be able to create animals that does not need subsistence to live.

I challenge you to think of an example where I can't just side step it trivially by making stuff up as I go along - for such is the power of omnipotence.

[Still small]

[Replying to post 199 by Bust Nak]

When something is designed perfectly for a specific purpose, that doesn’t mean that it is designed perfectly for every purpose, which is apparently what you want or expect. I was watching a laser cutter slicing through a sheet of stainless steel with great precision. A fantastic invention, a concentrated beam of light, an intense stream of photons cutting through virtually anything . . . but it is useless as a light source for trying to find where I dropped my keys in the front yard last night. Photons, light beams and laser cutters, specifically, must be imperfect and terribly designed.

The only thing you are emphasising is your lack of knowledge as to WHY God designed things in a specific way. You are just pointing out that you do not understand God’s purpose. Quite frankly, there are many things that I do not understand God’s purpose and maybe never will but that does not prove that God did not design it or that He designed it imperfectly. It just means that we may not understand, to the same extent, the purpose behind it. As revealed in the Bible, God’s plans are long term plans, not just quick ‘fixits’. Until we fully understand God’s purpose, we are not in a position to judge whether it is good or bad.

As with the explanation of why milk spoils, rather than looking at it as an imperfect design, it is better for us to understand its original purpose. And then how we can adapt it for other things, for example, cheese, yogurt, etc.

Have a good day!
Still small