The Joy of Atheism

[Jagella]

Christian apologists like William Lane Craig and Ravi Zacharias like to tell people that life without God (the Christian God) is absurd and without a moral basis. It will lead to immorality and social disruption. It will harm the individual in this life and especially in the supposed hereafter. Society itself will crumble without the ties that only God can provide.

Allow me to give my own version of what it's like to live without God which in a very real sense is the life we all live although many of us may not realize it.

I was a born-again, Pentecostal Christian in the mid 1980s. I read the Bible believing everything it said, I prayed, I exercised faith, I regularly attended church, and I eagerly looked forward to meeting Jesus "in the air" to leave this sinful earth and to live forever with Jesus in paradise.

Something was wrong, however. I kept having these feelings that what I was believing wasn't true, and that I was crazy for believing it. My life as a Christian went from good to bad as I saw the hypocrisy of my fellow Christians and the failure of prayer. The miracles I read about in the Bible seemed to belong to another world and surely not this world. I learned that the faith healers were fake stealers ripping off poor, old, and sick people. Perhaps worst of all was the terrible thoughts I had that all those non-Christian people in the world were destined for eternity in a lake of fire if they didn't repent and believe the gospel.

Like I feared, I started having some emotional problems. I became angry toward people especially those Christians I began to see as hypocrites and sinners. One night I remember having a nightmare about God. I was in a misty void, and I called out: "Is that you, Lord?" I woke up with a shudder. I told my pastor about the nightmare and that before my mind goes Christianity goes.

Christianity soon went, all right. I studied my Bible, and I was beginning to find errors in it. I discovered contradictions, false prophecies, and worst of all atrocities ordered by God. My pastor was unable to provide any good explanation for them. Finally one day it dawned on me that there's just no way that the claims of Christianity are true. The God of the Bible cannot exist--it's logically impossible.

I soon found myself an atheist. Gone forever was that invisible monster in the sky and all his little monsters. The lake of fire was a myth used to frighten fools into belief. It was a lie--the biggest lie ever inflicted on humankind. I was so lucky to be free of that evil, the evil that never again haunted my dreams.

So my becoming an atheist is the best thing I've ever done. I love being free of the gods and the ridiculous myths that liars use to try to make them seem real. It's so much better being the best person I can think of being.

So as for all of you, why not join me in freedom from the gods and religion? Stay home Sunday mornings and get some good sleep. When you get up, have a good breakfast. If you have a partner, invite him or her over for a nice visit. Order some pizza, crack open a beer or softdrink, pop a good movie into the DVD player--maybe a good porn flick--and enjoy yourself. If you're both consenting adults, then have some great sex together. It doesn't matter what kind of sex; it can be straight, gay, or lesbian. Just make sure to have a good time and make the best out of this one short life we all have.

There's so much more I can tell you about living as an atheist, but for now let me ask...

Why not join us and experience the joy of atheism?

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 32:

N'em n'ere is fightin' werds.

It's always nice to come up on a feller that knows him how to speak proper English, and don't get onto 'im too much, them that can't. I can't tell ya what a time I have me with some of 'em on this site about it.

And how 'bout the joy of an atheist and a Christian having such a pleasant exchange of ideas?


Conclusions?

Joy's there for anyone if'n ya look for it, no matter how surly it was you was, when it was ya woke.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 33 by Goose]

I’m not here to dispute your personal views about God. These views don’t apply to me so they’re irrelevant.

You don't care about genocide, rape, and torture.

Fine. I don’t have a problem with a gay couple having sex. I’m not one to impose Christian values on non-Christians. And I don’t have a problem with a gay couple who wishes to form a legal union.But how is any of this a joy for me?

I don't know how it might be a joy for you, but for me it's great to know that any consenting adults can enjoy sex and not just straight, married people. You know full well that Christianity condemns homosexuality and extramarital sex.

I agree many “religious rules� are unhelpful.

Yes, like the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount.

But my Joy is grounded in a relationship with God and the knowledge of my salvation through faith in Christ. Everything else is gravy.

But I thought that you don't believe in hell? "Salvation" is the state of being saved from hell.

I agree that religion itself won’t offer joy.

Really? So all that religion like God, prayer, and heaven doesn't offer you joy.

In the end I can’t see where you have offered a “joy� I’m interested in experiencing or not currently enjoying.

Did I offer a joy? I can't give you joy, but if you would like the joy of freedom from religion, then I recommend giving up theism and all its evils.

I should point out that I'm not saying I live a wonderful life. Far from it. I have many problems I must struggle with. But that's what's so great about atheism; as tough as life can be, I know that it's not made worse by religion.

[AgnosticBoy]

Christian apologists like William Lane Craig and Ravi Zacharias like to tell people that life without God (the Christian God) is absurd and without a moral basis. It will lead to immorality and social disruption. It will harm the individual in this life and especially in the supposed hereafter. Society itself will crumble without the ties that only God can provide.

Allow me to give my own version of what it's like to live without God which in a very real sense is the life we all live although many of us may not realize it.

I was a born-again, Pentecostal Christian in the mid 1980s. I read the Bible believing everything it said, I prayed, I exercised faith, I regularly attended church, and I eagerly looked forward to meeting Jesus "in the air" to leave this sinful earth and to live forever with Jesus in paradise.

Something was wrong, however. I kept having these feelings that what I was believing wasn't true, and that I was crazy for believing it. My life as a Christian went from good to bad as I saw the hypocrisy of my fellow Christians and the failure of prayer. The miracles I read about in the Bible seemed to belong to another world and surely not this world. I learned that the faith healers were fake stealers ripping off poor, old, and sick people. Perhaps worst of all was the terrible thoughts I had that all those non-Christian people in the world were destined for eternity in a lake of fire if they didn't repent and believe the gospel.

Like I feared, I started having some emotional problems. I became angry toward people especially those Christians I began to see as hypocrites and sinners. One night I remember having a nightmare about God. I was in a misty void, and I called out: "Is that you, Lord?" I woke up with a shudder. I told my pastor about the nightmare and that before my mind goes Christianity goes.

Christianity soon went, all right. I studied my Bible, and I was beginning to find errors in it. I discovered contradictions, false prophecies, and worst of all atrocities ordered by God. My pastor was unable to provide any good explanation for them. Finally one day it dawned on me that there's just no way that the claims of Christianity are true. The God of the Bible cannot exist--it's logically impossible.

I soon found myself an atheist. Gone forever was that invisible monster in the sky and all his little monsters. The lake of fire was a myth used to frighten fools into belief. It was a lie--the biggest lie ever inflicted on humankind. I was so lucky to be free of that evil, the evil that never again haunted my dreams.

So my becoming an atheist is the best thing I've ever done. I love being free of the gods and the ridiculous myths that liars use to try to make them seem real. It's so much better being the best person I can think of being.

So as for all of you, why not join me in freedom from the gods and religion? Stay home Sunday mornings and get some good sleep. When you get up, have a good breakfast. If you have a partner, invite him or her over for a nice visit. Order some pizza, crack open a beer or softdrink, pop a good movie into the DVD player--maybe a good porn flick--and enjoy yourself. If you're both consenting adults, then have some great sex together. It doesn't matter what kind of sex; it can be straight, gay, or lesbian. Just make sure to have a good time and make the best out of this one short life we all have.

There's so much more I can tell you about living as an atheist, but for now let me ask...

Why not join us and experience the joy of atheism?

In my view, atheism is overrated in the intellectual community. It's easy to be a negative atheists in a debate because you hardly have any positive claims to prove. Many negative atheists just raise questions and/or argue from a skeptical standpoint, and this is in the context of already knowing that many Christian claims/beliefs aren't conducive to evidence and logic, especially scientific evidence. But let an atheist have a positive claim to defend, like no gods or supernatural exists, and there you find the debate skill is nothing worth while.

A better example of my point can be seen in a thread I started on the mind/body problem (thread:Mental imagery as non-physical perception pt. 2). I specifically requested scientific evidence that the mind was entirely physical. All I got was a bunch of atheists (atheism is not synonymous with materialism although a lot of atheists hold to the view) offering a promissory note that it will one day be shown to be physical. On that thread, I felt like I was the atheist who goes to a Christian website just to be offered the same worn out Christian apologist arguments.

Again, this is not a point to make atheists look bad, it's just to show that they are not necessarily better debaters/thinkers than Christians. It just appears like that way because they are in an easier position to argue about logic and evidence.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 43 by AgnosticBoy]

In my view, atheism is overrated in the intellectual community.

I totally agree with you. A person does not need to be an intellectual to realize that there are no gods. In fact, anybody is smart enough to conclude that the gods were made up by people. It's very simple, straight-forward logic.

It's easy to be a negative atheists in a debate because you hardly have any positive claims to prove. Many negative atheists just raise questions and/or argue from a skeptical standpoint, and this is in the context of already knowing that many Christian claims/beliefs aren't conducive to evidence and logic, especially scientific evidence.

Again, I agree with you. Atheism is very easy to argue because as I said above, it is straight-forward, simple logic. As you say, all the atheist needs to do is sit back and watch the theist fall all over himself as he tries in vain to offer any convincing evidence for magic.

But let an atheist have a positive claim to defend, like no gods or supernatural exists, and there you find the debate skill is nothing worth while.

Actually, it's perfectly easy to argue against the gods. Just ask the theist to argue against any gods he doesn't believe in, and then use those very same arguments to argue against his god! He's essentially trapped because he can't logically argue against his own logic.

A better example of my point can be seen in a thread I started on the mind/body problem (thread:Mental imagery as non-physical perception pt. 2). I specifically requested scientific evidence that the mind was entirely physical. All I got was a bunch of atheists (atheism is not synonymous with materialism although a lot of atheists hold to the view) offering a promissory note that it will one day be shown to be physical. On that thread, I felt like I was the atheist who goes to a Christian website just to be offered the same worn out Christian apologist arguments.

An easy way to see that the mind is merely physical is that it moves through space. Physical things move through space. The mind also depends on the physical brain. Just alter the brain, perhaps with drugs or alcohol, and you alter the mind. I must wonder if the mind can exist without the brain, then what is it doing with the brain to begin with?

In any case, I'm not sure what this issue has to do with gods. Even if the brain is a ghost of some sort, such a fact in no way proves that any gods exist.

Again, this is not a point to make atheists look bad, it's just to show that they are not necessarily better debaters/thinkers than Christians. It just appears like that way because they are in an easier position to argue about logic and evidence.

Actually, Christians in many cases are better thinkers and debaters than atheists. They need to be considering what they're trying to prove to themselves and to others.

So the ease and simplicity of thinking without my mind being poisoned by theism is for me the joy of atheism.

[AgnosticBoy]

[Replying to post 43 by AgnosticBoy]

In my view, atheism is overrated in the intellectual community.

I totally agree with you. A person does not need to be an intellectual to realize that there are no gods. In fact, anybody is smart enough to conclude that the gods were made up by people. It's very simple, straight-forward logic.

Your statement here is nothing more than claims without proof. You say people "made up gods" as if they deliberately invented them as opposed to having some sort of experience of one. Such an illogical conclusion (not considering that there can be multiple origins for god concepts, like invention, experiences, etc) shows me that you likely lack the proof to justify your absolute claim. I assume you know that there are many different God concepts out there. I would hope to see you deal with god concepts on a case-by-case basis instead of generalizing from your view of the Christian god.

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 45 by AgnosticBoy]

Why wouldn't unintentionally invented gods qualify as "making it up?" In other words, why can't people honestly and sincerely make gods up? Think of the game of Chinese whispers, no one along the chain deliberately invented something new, yet in the end there is something different to the designated phrase.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 45 by AgnosticBoy]

Your statement here is nothing more than claims without proof.

What would constitute proof that there are no gods? Different people have different standards of what they think is proof. I normally don't try to prove anything especially in a religious context because I know my proof will be denied by anybody who doesn't like what I'm saying. So what's the point of trying to prove there are no gods?

That said, I think that for practical purposes the existence of the gods has been disproved. As far as I know there is no good evidence for them, and there is tons of evidence against their existence. Even those who believe in one or more gods see this evidence against the gods except for the gods they believe in. The impotence of prayer, failed prophecies, religious con games and corruption, contradictory theologies, and gods emerging in one culture while unknown in all other cultures among many other difficulties argues so strongly against any objective existence of the gods that we can conclude we have disproved their existence.

You say people "made up gods" as if they deliberately invented them as opposed to having some sort of experience of one.

I see people making up gods all the time. Those gods closely mirror the thoughts and prejudices of the person(s) espousing them. The gods also never have any knowledge beyond what their creators have, and neither do those gods have any power beyond the believer. Those gods only exist in the minds of those who imagine them.

Such an illogical conclusion (not considering that there can be multiple origins for god concepts, like invention, experiences, etc) shows me that you likely lack the proof to justify your absolute claim.

I'm not sure how my conclusion is illogical. What error in logic did I make? Those other origins of gods you mention above can fall into the category of them being made up. Can you post an example of a god you believe was not created by people?

I assume you know that there are many different God concepts out there. I would hope to see you deal with god concepts on a case-by-case basis instead of generalizing from your view of the Christian god.

Sure, there are many different "God concepts out there." Why is it illogical to conclude all those concepts are made up? Isn't that what a concept is--something made up in the mind?

Oh, you want me to deal with god concepts on a case-by-case basis? When I can spend ten years doing so, then I'll get around to it.

Why are the gods so important to you? Are you hoping they exist?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 47 by Jagella]

What would constitute proof that there are no gods?

Any hypothesis that explains more than a 'gods' hypothesis constitutes proof there are no gods.
So, discover what you need gods to explain, then see if there is another testable explanation.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 47 by Jagella]

What would constitute proof that there are no gods?

Any hypothesis that explains more than a 'gods' hypothesis constitutes proof there are no gods.
So, discover what you need gods to explain, then see if there is another testable explanation.

No, it doesn't. As they say, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Just because something can be done one way does not mean it can not also be done another way. Just because I know one way of skinning a cat, does not mean that a cat can not get skinned by a deity. The anecdotal incident can not be tested. One can set up a test something like it, but even that test is not necessarily exactly the same.

[AgnosticBoy]

[Replying to post 45 by AgnosticBoy]
Why wouldn't unintentionally invented gods qualify as "making it up?" In other words, why can't people honestly and sincerely make gods up? Think of the game of Chinese whispers, no one along the chain deliberately invented something new, yet in the end there is something different to the designated phrase.

I agree that someone can intentionally and unintentionally make up something but that is not the option i'm referring to. I'm referring to experiences where we don't know if something was made up so it doesn't fit Jagella's category, by definition. Your example involves you knowing that something new was added ("made up").

What would constitute proof that there are no gods? Different people have different standards of what they think is proof. I normally don't try to prove anything especially in a religious context because I know my proof will be denied by anybody who doesn't like what I'm saying. So what's the point of trying to prove there are no gods?

It is hard to prove absolute claims, especially one that covers a broad category such as God. Much of your points speak to specific conceptions of God so they don't justify your absolute claim. There are clearly unknowns, unexamined cases, limitations, etc. Hek, even having no evidence for gods does not justify the conclusion that no gods exist. At best, all you have is an inductive argument against SPECIFIC god concepts (not god, in principle), where the truth of the conclusion is a matter of degree, and not 100% certainty.

It doesn't seem that you have much to say about a deist conception of god.