If you believe in Heaven.
If you believe in redemption.
If you believe in monotheism, or a monotheism that is a trinity.
If you believe they put a man on the moon.
Why would you think it has any effect on reality?
Why would you think it has any effect on the afterlife or God?
Realtiy, whatever it is, IS what it is, right?
If termites prayed to you would it make a difference?
Reality will be unchanged by your beliefs, right?
God is perfect and unchanged by your beliefs right?
So how does belief change God or what happens ever, or after you die?
If one termite believes you are his savior, and one believes I am it's saviour, does this change anything at all?
Does belief matter at all?
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Re: Does belief matter at all?
Post #71And I am appealing to the exact same thing: by a free will uncompelled by GOD. I was very careful to use the exact wording you used everytime.ttruscott wrote: The end result you just mention might be the same as mine but the process by which we each reach the end result is opposite:
I claim we get to that result by a free will uncompelled by GOD
Quit it with the strawman. I said nothing of the sort, I explicitly excluded any and all forms of coercion. While you are under no obligation to respond to my post, consistently and repeatedly misrepreseting my position despite my protest is just not on.while the argument you built, though you forgot to mention it, is that GOD should force us...
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Post #72
Does light abide dark? Not at all. Dark does not exist in light. In morals, GOD is light with no darkness in HIM. All moral dark is destroyed by HIS light by either reforming it to be good or by judgement banishing it from this reality.Willum wrote: Why would an all powerful creature, not be able to abide sin, essentially human nature? Sin is another name for human nature, right? Are our base instincts so much more powerful than he is?
Sin is not human nature, in PCE Christianity at least. When the spirits fell they became sinful by a corruption of their innocent nature which was carried over into their human form when they are conceived.
Even orthodox Christians believe that our sinful natures are a corruption from of that which we were created to be, ie HIS image. Our sinful nature is a corruption of our created nature, not equal to it. When the sinful elect are cured from their sinful nature, they return to their true nature as children of GOD in HIS image whether in human form or not.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
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Post #73
Um, there is no absolute state of light or dark. Perhaps in the corona of a star, it might be said to be perfectly lit, however, the nature of reality says space can contain an infinite amount of light (or dark) in the same place at the same time. So yes, light abides dark, easily. And I suppose, if this God of yours knows everything, he must be able to understand and abide the dark, even BE the darkness, but in order to be logically consistent with your view, also be strong enough to resist.ttruscott wrote: Does light abide dark? Not at all. Dark does not exist in light. In morals, GOD is light with no darkness in HIM. All moral dark is destroyed by HIS light by either reforming it to be good or by judgment banishing it from this reality.
Of course, it resolves all paradox by assuming God does not exist at all.
Welp, if you can name to me one sin (not artificial - such as taking Yahweks name in vain,) that is not human nature, I'll agree with you.Sin is not human nature, in PCE Christianity at least. When the spirits fell they became sinful by a corruption of their innocent nature which was carried over into their human form when they are conceived.
Sorry, invoking another religion I don't believe in to support your position is a great deal like pouring water on a ducks back. Or teaching a gorilla to fly.Even orthodox Christians believe that our sinful natures are a corruption from of that which we were created to be, ie HIS image. Our sinful nature is a corruption of our created nature, not equal to it. When the sinful elect are cured from their sinful nature, they return to their true nature as children of GOD in HIS image whether in human form or not.
Cordially,
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Post #74
This is a standard response offered when people disagree with your unsupported claims. You've given a series of claim that appear ridiculous, claims which you assert as if by divine fiat, completely unsupported by facts. Your claims are mere opinions, then you claim those who disagree with your mere opinions do so because they don't have the ability to understand them.Hawkins wrote:
It doesn't seem to me that you have a grasp of what human witnessing is.
Furthermore, these baseless opinions assume the existence of the very thing we are debating, the existence of a God... actually worse:
You claim the existence of a very particular god to the exclusion of other [equally non existent] gods. If this kind of argument actually worked, it would be refuted by the same type of attack:
"It doesn't seem to me that you have a grasp of:
a) what you are talking about,
or
b) reality."
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Re: Does belief matter at all?
Post #75The creation of a straw man (so common here) is a tacit admission that the debater cannot refute what you actually write; therefore, a false version is created.Bust Nak wrote:And I am appealing to the exact same thing: by a free will uncompelled by GOD. I was very careful to use the exact wording you used everytime.ttruscott wrote: The end result you just mention might be the same as mine but the process by which we each reach the end result is opposite:
I claim we get to that result by a free will uncompelled by GOD
Quit it with the strawman. I said nothing of the sort, I explicitly excluded any and all forms of coercion. While you are under no obligation to respond to my post, consistently and repeatedly misrepreseting my position despite my protest is just not on.while the argument you built, though you forgot to mention it, is that GOD should force us...
Post #76
This post is a response to #63 (Danmark) and #64 (Bust Nak).
It's worth reminding ourselves of the OP: If we believe in something, does that change reality in any way?
So why believe anything about anything, if our beliefs make no difference to reality? Surely the answer is that we humans are wired to seek understanding, about ourselves and the world we live in. That's the reason for the phenomenal success of science over the last 500 years. And one of the deepest areas for thought and research is human nature itself. What of issues such as consciousness, ethics, creativity, humour, and (of special relevance to this discussion) free will?
This is why it disappoints me to see comments like this from Danmark:
I accept that free will in a theistic context is a challenging topic to wrestle with. And this is why I've tried so carefully to define terms accurately. What does free will actually mean? If God makes it so that I can only do the good, do I have free will?
This is only one question among many that explore the tensions between the divine and the human that arise if God exists. How can a good God relate to a sinful world? How can the Bible be both the words of humans and the word of God? Ditto Jesus, if he is divine. Broadly, I treat all such questions in the same way. Because God is infinite, I assume that any answers will be a mix of reason and mystery. The truth about God will be beyond reason but should not be contrary to reason. So I don't expect to come up with full answers, but I do expect to find enough of an answer to satisfy me that the Christian view is coherent. Of course each of us has to (freely!) make our own decision on that point.
And finally, because I recognise that these are profound issues on which intelligent people have held different and sincere views over the centuries, I try to listen with openness and respect when people disagree with me.
It's worth reminding ourselves of the OP: If we believe in something, does that change reality in any way?
And of course that's exactly right. For example, if I think I'm Superman and jump off a tall building, my belief is not going to change the rules of gravity."Reality, whatever it is, is what it is, right?"
So why believe anything about anything, if our beliefs make no difference to reality? Surely the answer is that we humans are wired to seek understanding, about ourselves and the world we live in. That's the reason for the phenomenal success of science over the last 500 years. And one of the deepest areas for thought and research is human nature itself. What of issues such as consciousness, ethics, creativity, humour, and (of special relevance to this discussion) free will?
This is why it disappoints me to see comments like this from Danmark:
But the issue of free will has never been a purely Christian problem, it's always been a human problem. It's true that if God exists particular questions arise about free will (such as the tension between human choice and divine knowledge). But it's equally true that if God doesn't exist there are special questions to to answered. If all we have is a closed system of cause and effect, what then of free will for any of us? If we take Danmark's statement at face value, then Christianity is not absurd because he's thought about it rationally and come up with a free view on the subject. His belief about Christian absurdity is purely due to random natural forces acting on his brain and producing that answer out of necessity. And my view that Christianity is coherent, well that's equally meaningless for exactly the same reason. For all either of us know, we might as well be unconscious characters wired up to the super computer in the Matrix movies.This discussion reminds me of the futility of discussing the problem of 'free will' ...
I suggest the problem exists only because of the fantasy of orthodox Christianity which strives to impose its absurdity upon rationality.
I accept that free will in a theistic context is a challenging topic to wrestle with. And this is why I've tried so carefully to define terms accurately. What does free will actually mean? If God makes it so that I can only do the good, do I have free will?
This is only one question among many that explore the tensions between the divine and the human that arise if God exists. How can a good God relate to a sinful world? How can the Bible be both the words of humans and the word of God? Ditto Jesus, if he is divine. Broadly, I treat all such questions in the same way. Because God is infinite, I assume that any answers will be a mix of reason and mystery. The truth about God will be beyond reason but should not be contrary to reason. So I don't expect to come up with full answers, but I do expect to find enough of an answer to satisfy me that the Christian view is coherent. Of course each of us has to (freely!) make our own decision on that point.
And finally, because I recognise that these are profound issues on which intelligent people have held different and sincere views over the centuries, I try to listen with openness and respect when people disagree with me.
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Post #77
Interesting that you are 'so disappointed' while agreeing with my point. The reason Christianity is especially troubling regarding the free-will issue is Christianity's insistence on the contradiction that humans are free to choose while at the same time insisting they are not, that God "predestined" them to their fates.peterk wrote: This post is a response to #63 (Danmark) and #64 (Bust Nak).
It's worth reminding ourselves of the OP: If we believe in something, does that change reality in any way?And of course that's exactly right. For example, if I think I'm Superman and jump off a tall building, my belief is not going to change the rules of gravity."Reality, whatever it is, is what it is, right?"
So why believe anything about anything, if our beliefs make no difference to reality? Surely the answer is that we humans are wired to seek understanding, about ourselves and the world we live in. That's the reason for the phenomenal success of science over the last 500 years. And one of the deepest areas for thought and research is human nature itself. What of issues such as consciousness, ethics, creativity, humour, and (of special relevance to this discussion) free will?
This is why it disappoints me to see comments like this from Danmark:But the issue of free will has never been a purely Christian problem, it's always been a human problem. It's true that if God exists particular questions arise about free will (such as the tension between human choice and divine knowledge).This discussion reminds me of the futility of discussing the problem of 'free will' ...
I suggest the problem exists only because of the fantasy of orthodox Christianity which strives to impose its absurdity upon rationality.
This may be why the Christian apologist must so frequently fall back on "It's a mystery" when trying to explain the many contradictions and absurdities of its scriptures.
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Post #78
I do agree with this interpretation of Christian orthodox theology. Orthodoxy knows we need to have a free will to keep GOD at arm's length from the creation of evil and to make our guilt for our sins to be ours and not someone else's BUT they also know that it is written that GOD has predetermined all of life...Danmark wrote: Interesting that you are 'so disappointed' while agreeing with my point. The reason Christianity is especially troubling regarding the free-will issue is Christianity's insistence on the contradiction that humans are free to choose while at the same time insisting they are not, that God "predestined" them to their fates.
This may be why the Christian apologist must so frequently fall back on "It's a mystery" when trying to explain the many contradictions and absurdities of its scriptures.
What they have missed is that our time of free will was before the creation of the physical universe and then only sinners (those enslaved to the addictive power of evil so that they do not have a free will) are sent to prison earth to live lives predetermined to fulfill HIS promise of salvation for the sinful elect, ie, sinners who are not condemned, and judgement for those condemned already.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
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Post #79
From Post 78:
To the farmer who lost 'im the cow, we found her here at the square dance.ttruscott wrote: ...
What they have missed is that our time of free will was before the creation of the physical universe and then only sinners (those enslaved to the addictive power of evil so that they do not have a free will) are sent to prison earth to live lives predetermined to fulfill HIS promise of salvation for the sinful elect, ie, sinners who are not condemned, and judgement for those condemned already.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Post #80
I don't see anything here that is related to what I stated in post#64. Did God the father,* know in advance with certainty that Jesus would not choose to sin during his time on Earth?peterk wrote: This post is a response to ... #64 (Bust Nak).
Is knowing in advance with certainty what a person would do, a logically impossibility (square circles,) given free will?
* replace as required by your particular view on the Trinity.