If Jesus is not God

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Elijah John
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If Jesus is not God

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

If Jesus is not God, as JWs and some other Christians suggest, how serious an idolatry is it to worship him as though he is?

Are ignorance and indoctrination valid excuses to worship Jesus?

Conversely, if Jesus is God, how sinful is it to consider him a "mere" human, prophet, rabbi etc.?

Does the Bible ever condemn anyone for not acknowledging someone other than the Father as "God"?

Before someone worships Jesus as "God" hadn't one be pretty darn sure that he is, indeed God?

In a variation of Pascal's wager, isn't it more safe and wise to worship the Father alone as "God", since there is really no Biblical downside to doing so?

If one embraces the Father alone as God, what does one have to lose?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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onewithhim
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Post #41

Post by onewithhim »

Athetotheist wrote:
tigger2 wrote: [Replying to post 37 by Athetotheist]

How long have you considered the translation of the NWT to be superior to that of ESV; NAB; NASB; NRSV; RSV; and KJV? I'm impressed.

However, I see that the NWT does agree with those noted trinitarian Bibles at Rev. 22:13.
I don't actually consider it superior; when debating with those of a particular sect, however, it's most effective to go to what they consider authoritative.
I see you are not interested in having a meaningful discussion about this, as, it seems, you have not consulted an Interlinear version which shows the difference between the actual Greek wording of verses 8 and 17 in Revelation. I asked you to please do so, and then we can discuss it further.

Athetotheist
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Post #42

Post by Athetotheist »

onewithhim wrote:
Athetotheist wrote:
tigger2 wrote: [Replying to post 37 by Athetotheist]

How long have you considered the translation of the NWT to be superior to that of ESV; NAB; NASB; NRSV; RSV; and KJV? I'm impressed.

However, I see that the NWT does agree with those noted trinitarian Bibles at Rev. 22:13.
I don't actually consider it superior; when debating with those of a particular sect, however, it's most effective to go to what they consider authoritative.
I see you are not interested in having a meaningful discussion about this, as, it seems, you have not consulted an Interlinear version which shows the difference between the actual Greek wording of verses 8 and 17 in Revelation. I asked you to please do so, and then we can discuss it further.
My apologies for not addressing your issue in question, but I assure you that I am highly interested in having a meaningful discussion about this, which goes well beyond the Greek wording of verses 8 and 17 of Revelation. The general issue here is whether or not Jesus was God. Some believe that he was both God and Messiah. If he wasn't a Messiah then he definitely wasn't God, and there's plenty of evidence that he wasn't a Messiah. I am quite prepared to discuss this as we go on.

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onewithhim
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Post #43

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to post 42 by Athetotheist]

I must have gotten you mixed up with someone else. Someone was making the point that since Rev.1:17 says that Jesus is "the first and the last," then it must mean that he is the Alpha and Omega (which is God). I asked this person to look in an Interlinear to see the difference in the Greek---between verse 17 and verse 8. I thought this was an interesting point to discuss.

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Post #44

Post by Athetotheist »

onewithhim wrote: [Replying to post 42 by Athetotheist]

I must have gotten you mixed up with someone else. Someone was making the point that since Rev.1:17 says that Jesus is "the first and the last," then it must mean that he is the Alpha and Omega (which is God). I asked this person to look in an Interlinear to see the difference in the Greek---between verse 17 and verse 8. I thought this was an interesting point to discuss.
After examining an interlinear, it seems fairly obvious to me that the Greek of 1:8 (Alpha-kai-Omega) would be different from the Greek of 1:17 (protos-kai-eschatos:"first and last"), but you neglect to mention 22:13, in which both of them are used for the same individual (Alpha-kai-Omega, arche-kai-telos, protos-kai-eschatos: "Alpha and Omega, beginning and end, first and last").

I admit that I don't have a scholarly knowledge of Greek, but even a layman such as myself can see where the same words are applied to the same person. Nonetheless, I'm willing to concede that the text might leave you enough room to interpret it as not saying that Jesus was God; I was commenting on the way in which a non-trinitarian translation seemed to indicate that he *was* God.

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onewithhim
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Post #45

Post by onewithhim »

Athetotheist wrote:
onewithhim wrote: [Replying to post 42 by Athetotheist]

I must have gotten you mixed up with someone else. Someone was making the point that since Rev.1:17 says that Jesus is "the first and the last," then it must mean that he is the Alpha and Omega (which is God). I asked this person to look in an Interlinear to see the difference in the Greek---between verse 17 and verse 8. I thought this was an interesting point to discuss.
After examining an interlinear, it seems fairly obvious to me that the Greek of 1:8 (Alpha-kai-Omega) would be different from the Greek of 1:17 (protos-kai-eschatos:"first and last"), but you neglect to mention 22:13, in which both of them are used for the same individual (Alpha-kai-Omega, arche-kai-telos, protos-kai-eschatos: "Alpha and Omega, beginning and end, first and last").

I admit that I don't have a scholarly knowledge of Greek, but even a layman such as myself can see where the same words are applied to the same person. Nonetheless, I'm willing to concede that the text might leave you enough room to interpret it as not saying that Jesus was God; I was commenting on the way in which a non-trinitarian translation seemed to indicate that he *was* God.
I appreciate your looking at an Interlinear. You have a valid point about Rev.22:13. However, I reason that Jehovah is referred to as "the first and the last," as well as Jesus was, in the same sense that Jehovah says many times in the Scriptures that He is "the Savior." Jesus is also called "the Savior." Does that show us that they are the same person? No, I think we had arrived at the conclusion long ago that Jehovah is the One running the show, as it were, and all goodness and power and light originates with Him. He gave Jesus the instructions to come down to Earth and overturn the Devil's schemes and Adam's rebellion, thus becoming the world's "Savior." Jehovah said clearly that the world would be saved through Jesus. The actions of that one would be Jehovah's means of saving the world.

So, truly, we can call Jehovah the Savior, because the plan originated with Him, and He saw to it that it was carried out. We can also call Jesus the Savior, because it was through him that Jehovah's plan was fulfilled.

I think that the same idea can be applied to Rev.1:17 and 22:13.


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