This Generation Will Not Pass Away:

[Overcomer]

Jesus talks about the destruction of the temple and signs of the end times in Matt. 24:1-35:

1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?� he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.�

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,� they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?�

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days


“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Verse 34 has been the subject of many a debate. My questions are as follows:

What did Jesus mean when he said "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened?" Who is "this generation"?

[polonius]

Tam posted:

In any case, we are reassured that despite the persecution that has happened in the past (such as what happened with the apostles and early disciples, including what Christ had just finished warning them was going to happen) as well as the persecution that is to come, 'this generation' will not pass away, and will still be here and be alive when all these things happen (including when He returns).

RESPONSE: Let's get reality oriented.

1. "Christ had just finished warning them..." All the gospels were written about 40-60 years after Christ's death and these events had already occurred.

2. "'This generation' will not pass away, and will still be here and be alive " Again you are overlook the specificity of the word "this" And you are also overlooking Christ's statement that he would return before the apostles could visit all the towns in Israel. Also you are overlooking Christ's claim to the chief priest that he would see his second coming.

3. It is amazing the actual facts that a fundamentalist must distort in order to continue to claim inerrancy in scripture!

[marco]

Christianity (the religion; organized/institutionalized) does indeed have a shelf life; all religions have a shelf life. But I was not referring to the religion. Being a Christian has nothing to do with being a member of Christianity (the religion). Being a Christian (an anointed one) has to do with Christ (THE Anointed One), and HE does not have a shelf life.

You demonstrate a brave unilateral declaration of independence, Tam. Some Christian groups will say other Christian groups are not real Christians. It was ever so. Christ does not confer a distinguishing mark, like Harry Potter's, on the foreheads of true believers. So to outsiders, all Christians are Christians.

In any case, we are reassured that despite the persecution that has happened in the past (such as what happened with the apostles and early disciples, including what Christ had just finished warning them was going to happen) as well as the persecution that is to come, 'this generation' will not pass away, and will still be here and be alive when all these things happen (including when He returns).

If only Jesus had thought to explain himself clearly, and better still, if only - as a friend - he had possessed the ability to defend those who believed in him. Many suffered worse deaths than he did. If their pain is compensated for in the next world, why, one wonders, do we bother with Earth? Why must believing in a being with power to remove suffering involve huge suffering? Are tears an integral part of laughter in the Kingdom of Heaven?

We have clearly seen the pain of those who believe. No one has witnessed the joy that allegedly results. The generation is the Catholic one to Catholics, Lutheran to Lutherans, JWs to JWs and individual favourites to those who do their own thing. If we leave the definition open, then the prophecy will surely be fulfileld, even if it just means those with long hair.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Tam posted:

In any case, we are reassured that despite the persecution that has happened in the past (such as what happened with the apostles and early disciples, including what Christ had just finished warning them was going to happen) as well as the persecution that is to come, 'this generation' will not pass away, and will still be here and be alive when all these things happen (including when He returns).

RESPONSE: Let's get reality oriented.

1. "Christ had just finished warning them..." All the gospels were written about 40-60 years after Christ's death and these events had already occurred.

It does not matter that the gospels were written afterward. People do tend to write about events after the events have already occurred. The authors are simply writing down the words that had previously been spoken by Christ.

Just before Christ said 'this generation will not pass until all these things have happened'... He had just finished warning them about the persecutions and tribulations to come. Some of those came in the lifetime of the apostles, and continued afterward, and still occur today.


But this one:

For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.


He cannot have simply been speaking about the physical temple being destroyed, because that is something that had previously happened. He cannot be speaking about the Jews fleeing Jerusalem, because that is also something that had previously happened (Judah and Israel had both previously been defeated and captured, the northern kingdom of Israel fell to the Assyrians; then the southern kingdom of Judah fell to the Chaldeans/Babylonians).


So that thing that He spoke of - a tribulation so great that had not occurred since the beginning of the world until then, and that would never occur again - is an event that had not yet happened at the time the gospels were written. This is something that has not yet occurred even today.

2. "'This generation' will not pass away, and will still be here and be alive " Again you are overlook the specificity of the word "this"

Not at all. "This" is referring to the generation Christ is speaking of, which the first century disciples were part of, but are not the entirety of.

And you are also overlooking Christ's statement that he would return before the apostles could visit all the towns in Israel.

"But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes."

True, we will not finish going through "the cities of Israel" before Christ returns.

3. It is amazing the actual facts that a fundamentalist must distort in order to continue to claim inerrancy in scripture!

But I do not claim inerrancy of scripture.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[marco]

So that thing that He spoke of - a tribulation so great that had not occurred since the beginning of the world until then, and that would never occur again - is an event that had not yet happened at the time the gospels were written. This is something that has not yet occurred even today.

A tribuation so great is measured by the people who endure it. So the Black Death was such a tribulation to the thousands caught up in it. The Holocaust was such a tribulation to those who died in it. A tsunami is such a tribulation.


Here is a true saviour speaking:

"You'll meet a virus that kills millions. Here is the cure. You will hear a preacher who turns billions against Christianity. Here's what to do to prevent it. You will find that nations want to wage terrible wars, with machinery of cruel sophistication. Here is what to do."

He was ignorant of what the world would become, of its pains and its successes, of valiant efforts to save the sick and extend knowledge; he was unaware of the cruelty and confusion of his followers. His antidote: Pray! Turn the other cheek! Hide. The phrase "a tribulation so great" is spoken by an unsophisticated, perhaps well-meaning, individual, in an age where swords won victories and gods roamed the earth.

[polonius]

Tam posted

It does not matter that the gospels were written afterward. People do tend to write about events after the events have already occurred. The authors are simply writing down the words that had previously been spoken by Christ.

RESPONSE: Or made up stories that sounded good.

Excerpted from A Concise History of the Catholic Church
By Father Thomas Bokenkotter, SS

"The Gospels were not meant to be a historical or biographical account of Jesus. They were written to convert unbelievers to faith in Jesus as the Messiah of God, risen and living now in his church and coming again to judge all men. Their authors did not deliberately invent or falsify facts about Jesus, but they were not primarily concerned with historical accuracy. They readily included material drawn from the Christian communities' experience of the risen Jesus. Words, for instance, were put in the mouth of Jesus and stories were told about him which, though not historical in the strict sense, nevertheless, in the minds of the evangelists, fittingly expressed the real meaning and intent of Jesus as faith had come to perceive him. For this reason, scholars have come to make a distinction between the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith."

[tam]

Peace to you Marco,

[Replying to post 320 by marco]

A tribuation so great is measured by the people who endure it

It is not merely a 'tribulation so great'. It is a tribulation that has never occurred before and will never occur again.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

Peace to you polonius,

Tam posted

It does not matter that the gospels were written afterward. People do tend to write about events after the events have already occurred. The authors are simply writing down the words that had previously been spoken by Christ.

RESPONSE: Or made up stories that sounded good.

Excerpted from A Concise History of the Catholic Church
By Father Thomas Bokenkotter, SS

"The Gospels were not meant to be a historical or biographical account of Jesus. They were written to convert unbelievers to faith in Jesus as the Messiah of God, risen and living now in his church and coming again to judge all men. Their authors did not deliberately invent or falsify facts about Jesus, but they were not primarily concerned with historical accuracy. They readily included material drawn from the Christian communities' experience of the risen Jesus. Words, for instance, were put in the mouth of Jesus and stories were told about him which, though not historical in the strict sense, nevertheless, in the minds of the evangelists, fittingly expressed the real meaning and intent of Jesus as faith had come to perceive him. For this reason, scholars have come to make a distinction between the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith."

And how does Thomas Bokenkotter know that what he is saying is true? Or is he just stating his (and others') opinion?




Peace again to you!

[polonius]

Peace to you polonius,

Tam posted

It does not matter that the gospels were written afterward. People do tend to write about events after the events have already occurred. The authors are simply writing down the words that had previously been spoken by Christ.

RESPONSE: Or made up stories that sounded good.

Excerpted from A Concise History of the Catholic Church
By Father Thomas Bokenkotter, SS

"The Gospels were not meant to be a historical or biographical account of Jesus. They were written to convert unbelievers to faith in Jesus as the Messiah of God, risen and living now in his church and coming again to judge all men. Their authors did not deliberately invent or falsify facts about Jesus, but they were not primarily concerned with historical accuracy. They readily included material drawn from the Christian communities' experience of the risen Jesus. Words, for instance, were put in the mouth of Jesus and stories were told about him which, though not historical in the strict sense, nevertheless, in the minds of the evangelists, fittingly expressed the real meaning and intent of Jesus as faith had come to perceive him. For this reason, scholars have come to make a distinction between the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith."

And how does Thomas Bokenkotter know that what he is saying is true? Or is he just stating his (and others') opinion?
..................

RESPONSE:


No. He can point to the many contradictions in the various chapters of the Bible itself.

For example, starting with the first two chapters of Matthew and Luke we have:


"The most intractable contradictions between the Nativity accounts. (both stories can’t be correct)

1. Two completely different genealogies for Joseph.

2. Luke places the date Jesus’ birth ten years later than Matthew. (4 BC vs 6 A.D.) see death of Herod and Judean 6 AD census.

3. Matthew has no birth in a manger story. Luke says they were living in Nazareth and traveling to Bethlehem for a census),

4. Matthew says that Jesus’ family fled to Egypt after the birth and moved to Nazareth only after the death of Herod. Luke says they were living in Nazareth all along and returned there immediately after Jesus was circumcised,

5. Luke know nothing of Herod’s slaughter of the Innocents or a flight to Egypt. In fact, by Luke’s chronology, Herod was already dead when Jesus was born.


Both are nice stories, but not historically correct, as can be seen."

[elijahpne]

[Replying to Overcomer]

Re: Matthew 24:34 "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened"

These learned men define "generation" as:

- "the whole multitude of men living at the same time, and especially of those of the Jewish race living at the same period." (W. E. Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)
- "the whole multitude of men living at the same time: . . used esp[ecially] of the Jewish race living at one and the same period.”J. H. Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament.

So Jesus said that the Jewish race living at that time the prophecy was spoken and who saw (or, more correctly, understood) the significance of the signs he gave will see the end. But which end?

That Jewish generation who saw the sign did see an end. It was the end of the Jewish age which happened in 70 A.D., when Jerusalem and the temple was destroyed. Without Jerusalem and the temple, the Jewish system of worship seem to have ended. But it was not "the end."

It is clear from the signs given by Jesus that he was not referring only to the end of the Jewish age but to a greater event - the end of world. Some of the features of the sign could not be fulfilled prior to 70 A.D.

Matthew 24:14, for example, says that "the gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations" which Jesus disciples, obviously, have no wherewithal to do back then. It has to wait for the Age of Technology, which is now.

Also, Matthew 24:21 says: "For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now - and never to be equaled again. Josephus said about 1,100,000 died in Jerusalem's destruction. But that's small compared with the millions who died in the two world wars of the past century. Jesus, more likely, was referring to the "great distress" of Jeremiah 25;32, 33 which is yet to happen.

Jer 25:31-33 "31 The tumult will resound to the ends of the earth, for the LORD will bring charges against the nations; he will bring judgment on all mankind and put the wicked to the sword" declares the LORD. 32 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "Look! Disaster is spreading from nation to nation; a mighty storm is rising from the ends of the earth." 33 At that time those slain by the LORD will be everywhere - from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned or gathered up or buried, but will be like dung lying on the ground. - NIV

It is important to note that Matthew 24:7, the beginning of the composite sign, says "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom." This began to happen in 1914 because Jesus sounded like he was referring to world wars. This may as well be the generation Jesus was referring to who will see the sign. If so, mind you this is only a hypothesis, then that generation or, at least, its contemporaries will see the end of this age. By contemporaries I mean they may not be alive in 1914 but they live contemporary to those who lived in that fateful year and who may not be living now.

[polonius]

[Replying to Overcomer]

Re: Matthew 24:34 "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened"

These learned men define "generation" as:

- "the whole multitude of men living at the same time, and especially of those of the Jewish race living at the same period.� (W. E. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)
- "the whole multitude of men living at the same time: . . used esp[ecially] of the Jewish race living at one and the same period.�—J. H. Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament.

So Jesus said that the Jewish race living at that time the prophecy was spoken and who saw (or, more correctly, understood) the significance of the signs he gave will see the end. But which end?

That Jewish generation who saw the sign did see an end. It was the end of the Jewish age which happened in 70 A.D., when Jerusalem and the temple was destroyed. Without Jerusalem and the temple, the Jewish system of worship seem to have ended. But it was not "the end."

It is clear from the signs given by Jesus that he was not referring only to the end of the Jewish age but to a greater event - the end of world. Some of the features of the sign could not be fulfilled prior to 70 A.D.

Matthew 24:14, for example, says that "the gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations" which Jesus disciples, obviously, have no wherewithal to do back then. It has to wait for the Age of Technology, which is now.

Also, Matthew 24:21 says: "For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now - and never to be equaled again. Josephus said about 1,100,000 died in Jerusalem's destruction. But that's small compared with the millions who died in the two world wars of the past century. Jesus, more likely, was referring to the "great distress" of Jeremiah 25;32, 33 which is yet to happen.

Jer 25:31-33 "31 The tumult will resound to the ends of the earth, for the LORD will bring charges against the nations; he will bring judgment on all mankind and put the wicked to the sword" declares the LORD. 32 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "Look! Disaster is spreading from nation to nation; a mighty storm is rising from the ends of the earth." 33 At that time those slain by the LORD will be everywhere - from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned or gathered up or buried, but will be like dung lying on the ground. - NIV

It is important to note that Matthew 24:7, the beginning of the composite sign, says "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom." This began to happen in 1914 because Jesus sounded like he was referring to world wars. This may as well be the generation Jesus was referring to who will see the sign. If so, mind you this is only a hypothesis, then that generation or, at least, its contemporaries will see the end of this age. By contemporaries I mean they may not be alive in 1914 but they live contemporary to those who lived in that fateful year and who may not be living now.

RESPONSE: "This generation" the present one Jesus identified certainly passed away in his time.

There have been world wars since the beginning of time. Rome conducted quite a few of them.