Jesus resurrection.

[Elijah John]

Does the doctrine of Jesus resurrection enhance or diminish the value of Jesus teachings?

Does this doctrine shift the emphasis from Jesus life and teachings, to his death and resurrection?

From the religion of Jesus *, to the religion about Jesus? (that he is God and that he died to "pay for" our sins).

From a practical form of Judaism, to a fantastical Trintarian Christianity?

Do we have the doctrine of the resurrection to thank or to blame for all of those things? Does the resurrection underline, or distract from Jesus own teachings?

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*The religion of Jesus. I.e. his teaching of love of God and neighbor, repentance and the Father's mercy, and the Kingdom of God.

[Mithrae]

*The religion of Jesus. I.e. his teaching of love of God and neighbor, repentance and the Father's mercy, and the Kingdom of God.

I would say that the biggest thing distracting from the teachings of Jesus is that very few want to acknowledge what he actually taught: Forsake all that you have, stop working for money, and start working for the kingdom of God. If we look at the parables of the treasure in a field or the pearl of great price, they seem to underline that message - sell everything you have for that greater but less obvious gain - and it can be strongly argued that Jesus' alleged resurrection clearly emphasizes that point of the great treasure to be gained.

The distraction from Jesus' teachings then would not be the resurrection, but that people want the resurrection and the material goods, or they want the righteousness and the material goods, but either way they don't want to forsake all they have as Jesus clearly taught.


Edit: Considering how few people actually follow Jesus' teachings the question of whether they really work is an interesting one, but presumably beyond the scope of this thread.

[steveb1]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

If Jesus was a real historical figure, then yes, the resurrection distracts from his teachings because Paul, who never met the historical Jesus, based his entire soteriology on Jesus' death and resurrection - with nary a mention of Jesus's teaching (or his miracles, parables, baptism, cures, exorcisms, etc.).

So, yes, inasmuch as mainstream Christianity incorporates Paulinism - which says that without the resurrection Christianity is in vain - it eclipses Jesus's teachings. There are even some sects that maintain that Jesus's three-year ministry was only a "dispensation" for people who heard him in that brief period, with the truly salvific resurrection being the ultimate deciding factor in Christian life - with faith in Christ Jesus completely trumping the living out his message as found in the Gospels.

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

Does the doctrine of Jesus resurrection enhance or diminish the value of Jesus teachings?

I see little value in one a-preachin' on God being him a loving god, who suffered him three days of suffering, in order to explain why all of humanity has to suffer 'em for all eternity.

Does this doctrine shift the emphasis from Jesus life and teachings, to his death and resurrection?

Only to them that accept Theology, Doctrine & Dogma is a legitimate form of debate.

The fact remains, we can't show Jesus ever had him a thought, much less that he even existed to have 'im him one of him one of 'em.

From the religion of Jesus *, to the religion about Jesus? (that he is God and that he died to "pay for" our sins).

That's kinda the cool thing about it, for it is, I've sinned me so many times, it'd take a million and one Jesus' to atone for all them sins I did me commit.

But really, To Hell with a god that'd condemn me my human foibles. To Hell with a god that'd get him upset that humans sit there a-bein' 'em all human and all.

To Hell with a god of forgiveness, that can't do 'im him any of him some of it.

From a practical form of Judaism, to a fantastical Trintarian Christianity?

From one religion to the next, as evolutionary theory can predict. Religion will only ever be shown to be the product of man's thinking, and that such thinking evolves with the times, with human learning, and all such as that.

Heck, when's the last time we prosecuted us a witch on the basis of we was upset on how her weight might be compared to that of a duck?

Do we have the doctrine of the resurrection to thank or to blame for all of those things? Does the resurrection underline, or distract from Jesus own teachings?

It distracts from legitimate debate in the C&A forums, where it is, OP assumes the man ever existed to utter him an utterance.


We have NONE, NO, NADA evidence in support of Jesus' theology, doctrine, or dogma. All we have are folks a-swearin' 'em up and down they, THEY, know the utterances of a man it is they can't show existed to even have him an utterer.


That's as goofy as me assertin' the pretty thing loves me for my rugged good looks, and not me my astoundin' intelligence.


Claims borne of empty'll forever suffer 'em for it.

[Tart]

Does the doctrine of Jesus resurrection enhance or diminish the value of Jesus teachings?

Does this doctrine shift the emphasis from Jesus life and teachings, to his death and resurrection?

From the religion of Jesus *, to the religion about Jesus? (that he is God and that he died to "pay for" our sins).

From a practical form of Judaism, to a fantastical Trintarian Christianity?

Do we have the doctrine of the resurrection to thank or to blame for all of those things? Does the resurrection underline, or distract from Jesus own teachings?

-----------

*The religion of Jesus. I.e. his teaching of love of God and neighbor, repentance and the Father's mercy, and the Kingdom of God.

The resurrection is the one fantastical tail that i believe.. Take all the other miracles away... The Resurrection is the one miracle that I point to as the evidence shows it, and as of God and the design of destiny...

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 4 by JoeyKnothead]

So if I understand correctly, you saying that each and every topic on the C and A forum needs to be along the lines of "first, prove God exists," or "first, prove Jesus exists".

Not so, the forum title is "Christianity and Apologetics, not "Theism vs Atheisim". The OP is not overly theological, but it does pertain "Christianity and Apologetics".

Unless, or course, you are saing that the entirety of the topic of Christinianity and/or apologietics is devoted to the two topics of "Does God exist, and/or Does Jesus exist.

One can easily address the topic of the Resurrection and it's effect on Christianity without believing in the Resurrection. So it is fair game on this forum. The topic does not compel belief, in order to participate.

Also, the notion that "this Jesus feller" never existed is a dictinct minority opinion, Even in skeptical academia. Most HJ scholars do indeed believe that a man, Jesus existed in Roman occupied Palestine.

[Elijah John]

Does the doctrine of Jesus resurrection enhance or diminish the value of Jesus teachings?

Does this doctrine shift the emphasis from Jesus life and teachings, to his death and resurrection?

From the religion of Jesus *, to the religion about Jesus? (that he is God and that he died to "pay for" our sins).

From a practical form of Judaism, to a fantastical Trintarian Christianity?

Do we have the doctrine of the resurrection to thank or to blame for all of those things? Does the resurrection underline, or distract from Jesus own teachings?

-----------

*The religion of Jesus. I.e. his teaching of love of God and neighbor, repentance and the Father's mercy, and the Kingdom of God.

The resurrection is the one fantastical tail that i believe.. Take all the other miracles away... The Resurrection is the one miracle that I point to as the evidence shows it, and as of God and the design of destiny...

How do Jesus teachings fare in comparison?

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 4 by JoeyKnothead]

Moderator Comment

Hi Joey,

Please respect the intent of the author's topic when they post. Clearly, they are assuming Jesus existed and so your post simply distracts from the debate topic. It may help you to simply debate the bible as a book. For instance, when discussing Star Wars I presume you do not start by saying Darth Vader does not exist, you accept the premises of the debate or choose not to participate.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[Wootah]

Does the doctrine of Jesus resurrection enhance or diminish the value of Jesus teachings?

Does this doctrine shift the emphasis from Jesus life and teachings, to his death and resurrection?

From the religion of Jesus *, to the religion about Jesus? (that he is God and that he died to "pay for" our sins).

From a practical form of Judaism, to a fantastical Trintarian Christianity?

Do we have the doctrine of the resurrection to thank or to blame for all of those things? Does the resurrection underline, or distract from Jesus own teachings?

-----------

*The religion of Jesus. I.e. his teaching of love of God and neighbor, repentance and the Father's mercy, and the Kingdom of God.

What did Jesus teach that has any value without the resurrection?

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Does the doctrine of Jesus resurrection enhance or diminish the value of Jesus teachings?

Jesus' teachings fall into several categories: moral and prophetical being two.

As for Moral: I do not think it does either, enhance or diminish. I suppose some might say that if/because Jesus was resurrected, his teachings have authority. In my experience, these same people will interpret difficult sayings of Jesus to conform them to what they already believe about right and wrong.

As for prophetical: Well, he spoke of his dying and rising; and then, supposing this happened, well it confirms the prophesy, and adds wait to other prophesies.

Does this doctrine shift the emphasis from Jesus life and teachings, to his death and resurrection?

Great question! The original gospel (i.e., that of the disciples and Paul) were about the Resurrection of Jesus, not about his teachings. Indeed, his teachings are not very original. Once traditions of him were put into writing (i.e. Gospels) his teachings probably acquired more importance than they otherwise had in the early church. We can note that only when the Corinthian church had questions of divorce, does Paul cite a "teaching from the Lord", which later made its way into the gospel of Mark.

From the religion of Jesus *, to the religion about Jesus? (that he is God and that he died to "pay for" our sins).

I don't know what this question means; it is kind of a fragment. There is no way (except to put on blinders) to read the gospels with the purpose of digging up the real historical Jesus and find nothing more than a moral Rabbi, like any other Rabbi. He clearly believed that the Jewish god was doing something unique in salvation history, and that he himself played the central role.

From a practical form of Judaism, to a fantastical Trintarian Christianity?

The question seems nothing more than a rhetorical statement. Is this Elijah John, or Marco writing?

Do we have the doctrine of the resurrection to thank or to blame for all of those things? Does the resurrection underline, or distract from Jesus own teachings?

IF we begin with the assumption that the Resurrection did not occur, then certainly, we have the fabrication of the story to blame for nearly everything that happened in the West till now; at the same time, it is highly likely that if Jesus' disciples never claimed or believed anything extraordinary happened to Jesus' corpse, we would probably never have heard of him, let alone of his teachings. In that case, his teachings are preserved by the claim he was resurrected; and so we have his alleged resurrection to thank for the teachings.