Demons

[imhereforyou]

A lot of people (practicing Christians or not) claim demons exists. Many times, something bad happens, or they see someone do something bad and they claim DEMONS or DEMONIC!
The Vatican has said not all processions are demonic.
How many here have experienced demons or the demonic?
How do you know (or do you just believe)?
What happened?
What did you do?

What % of things said to be demons or demonic are, in your opinion?

[Jagella]

A lot of people (practicing Christians or not) claim demons exists. Many times, something bad happens, or they see someone do something bad and they claim DEMONS or DEMONIC!
The Vatican has said not all processions are demonic.
How many here have experienced demons or the demonic?

I suppose the closest I ever got to "the demonic" was my mother's religion. She was a Roman Catholic.

How do you know (or do you just believe)?
What happened?
What did you do?

My mother regularly spoke of the Devil and believed that the people she hated were of the Devil. In particular she hated rock musicians and called their music "Satanic." She is a great example of a person whose religiosity is mental illness. I got out of religion to save my own mental health.

What % of things said to be demons or demonic are, in your opinion?

Zero percent of the claims of the demonic are based in reality. Belief in demons is a mental illness.

[JehovahsWitness]

By the way, my "dabbling in the occult" involved runes. Runes were used in the religion of the Vikings and were believed to have magical powers. I bought some of them and tried them out. I discovered that they're a harmless superstition.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, I could not care less about what you do in your private life; I have been told I have a knack with words but I am at a loss to express the full degree of my disinterested in your dabbles. If I want to hear a testimony I'll go to church not to a debate forum; I'm here to discuss issues not people, and I'm certainly not here to justify who I choose to interact with and why, what I read or don't read, or what I do with my personal time. So again thanks for sharing but I am not interested in what you do or what you appear to be trying to promote.

I hope I have made myself quite clear,

JW

[Tcg]

By the way, my "dabbling in the occult" involved runes. Runes were used in the religion of the Vikings and were believed to have magical powers. I bought some of them and tried them out. I discovered that they're a harmless superstition.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, I could not care less about what you do in your private life; I have been told I have a knack with words...

Who in your private life told you that you have a knack for words?

Oh, wait, according to you, discussing one's private life is irrelevant on a debate forum. Question withdrawn. Claim ignored.

If I want to hear a testimony I'll go to church not to a debate forum;

How many times do you hear a similar complaint when you interrupt people's peace and quiet during one of your door to door preaching campaigns?

So again thanks for sharing but I am not interested in what you do or what you appear to be trying to promote.

You obviously are interested to some degree or else you wouldn't have responded at all.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 21 by JehovahsWitness]

I hope I have made myself quite clear...

I'm not sure. I thought you wished to discuss "demons" and related issues. So how can I engage the topic spelled out in the OP without sharing my opinion on that issue?

[imhereforyou]

A lot of people (practicing Christians or not) claim demons exists. Many times, something bad happens, or they see someone do something bad and they claim DEMONS or DEMONIC!
The Vatican has said not all processions are demonic.
How many here have experienced demons or the demonic?

I suppose the closest I ever got to "the demonic" was my mother's religion. She was a Roman Catholic.

How do you know (or do you just believe)?
What happened?
What did you do?

My mother regularly spoke of the Devil and believed that the people she hated were of the Devil. In particular she hated rock musicians and called their music "Satanic." She is a great example of a person whose religiosity is mental illness. I got out of religion to save my own mental health.

What % of things said to be demons or demonic are, in your opinion?

Zero percent of the claims of the demonic are based in reality. Belief in demons is a mental illness.

I knew many who destroyed their music due to 'back masking' and having the Devil hidden in music. Seemed paranoid to me (though some of the music was awful so I didn't protest too much).
It's fun for some people to be fear full I think - why else would they do it?
For me, I won't go as far as say "demons aren't real" as I have no idea - though I've not personally known any - though I've know several people who I disliked enough to think they could be demons.
Besides, until you drive through Florida traffic you can't legitimately claim 'demons don't exist'

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 24 by imhereforyou]

I knew many who destroyed their music due to 'back masking' and having the Devil hidden in music. Seemed paranoid to me (though some of the music was awful so I didn't protest too much).

Why would the Devil make "awful" music? Doesn't he want to take possession by getting people to listen to it?

In any case, belief that music has occult powers long predates Ozzy Osbourne. Wizards were believed to cast their spells by singing them.

It's fun for some people to be fear full I think - why else would they do it?

Yes--like a roller coaster!

For me, I won't go as far as say "demons aren't real" as I have no idea - though I've not personally known any - though I've know several people who I disliked enough to think they could be demons.

You're talking like my mother.

Besides, until you drive through Florida traffic you can't legitimately claim 'demons don't exist'

There are Dodge Demons, and I'm sure they've possessed Florida highways.

[dianaiad]

By the way, my "dabbling in the occult" involved runes. Runes were used in the religion of the Vikings and were believed to have magical powers. I bought some of them and tried them out. I discovered that they're a harmless superstition.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, I could not care less about what you do in your private life; I have been told I have a knack with words but I am at a loss to express the full degree of my disinterested in your dabbles. If I want to hear a testimony I'll go to church not to a debate forum; I'm here to discuss issues not people, and I'm certainly not here to justify who I choose to interact with and why, what I read or don't read, or what I do with my personal time. So again thanks for sharing but I am not interested in what you do or what you appear to be trying to promote.

I hope I have made myself quite clear,

JW

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[Overcomer]

Jehovah's Witness wrote:

By "miraaculous manifestations" I am referring to spectacular and inexplicable phenonema such as hearing voices, paranormal activity, speaking in tongues, faith healing, levatation, predicting the future through messages from unseen spirits and other such paranormal phenonema.


1 CORTHINTHIANS 12:8-13
“Whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with.�

ACTS 8:14-18
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samarʹi•a had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them; and these went down and prayed for them to get holy spirit. [...] Now when Simon saw that the spirit was given through the laying on of the hands of the apostles, he offered them money, saying: “Give me this authority also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive holy spirit.�

2 TIMOTHY 3:16-17
All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

GALATIANS 5:19-21
“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, hatreds, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these.� (also compare Rev. 21:8)

2 THESSALONIANS 2:9
This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles. - New Living Translation

Thanks for providing those verses, JW. I appreciate you taking the time to do so. I am not surprised to see you quote the verse from 1 Corinthians 12. However, I think that cessationists misunderstand the passage and that the gifts of the Spirit are still available to believers, and always have been. See here:

http://www.letusreason.org/Doct77.htm

I do not see that the other verses you quoted suggest that people are not miraculously healed (I have been) or that people cannot and do not hear the voice of God audibly (I haven’t, but I know born-again, Spirit-filled believers who have).

I agree that engagement in the occult is wrong, but it is also wrong to suggest that all signs and miracles are of the devil and that none of them are from God. That is why one of the gifts of the Spirit is the discernment of spirits (1 Cor. 12:10). That very important gift helps us to be able to tell what’s of God and what isn’t of God and it is still available to us precisely because the gifts haven't ceased.

See here:

https://probe.org/what-is-the-spiritual ... scernment/

I think the devil is very happy when people don’t believe God exists. But I think he is also very happy when people don’t believe that HE exists because then he can run roughshod over them and manipulate them without them even knowing it.

There is a good reason that Paul teaches Christians to put on the armour of God in Ephesians 6. The battle is real and we need to be equipped.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 27 by Overcomer]

Interesting take on the verses.

.


1 CORTHINTHIANS 12:8-13
“Whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with.�

We know the gift of the spirit will cease one day because Paul explicitly stated that they would, the point of contention is not * if* but WHEN that day would be.

.



ACTS 8:14-18
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samarʹi•a had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them; and these went down and prayed for them to get holy spirit. [...] Now when Simon saw that the spirit was given through the laying on of the hands of the apostles, he offered them money, saying: “Give me this authority also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive holy spirit.�

The Jehovah's Witness understanding is that the Apostle could pass on those gifts through the physical laying on of their hands on people, but there is no indication in scripture that those who had theselves received such powers could themselves pass them on to the next "generation" of believers. If this conclusion is correct, when the last Aposle died and the last person that had an Aposle lay their hands on them died, that would bring the age of miracles to an end.

.



ACTS 8:14-18
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samarʹi•a had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them; and these went down and prayed for them to get holy spirit. [...] Now when Simon saw that the spirit was given through the laying on of the hands of the apostles, he offered them money, saying: “Give me this authority also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive holy spirit.�

As well as the logistics of the matter, I'm personally convinced by this understanding because it harmonize with WHY such gifts were granted in the first place.

We believe God always does things for a reason and Christian miracles were we believe evident proof that God's favour had passed from the Jewish system of temple based worship to this small group of disciples of the carpenter from Nazareth, it was the signal that mankind were to change a direction and join themselves to this "new" religion. Once the point had been made there was no need for such spectacular signs and as Jesus said continued identification would be through the LOVE this new "nation displayed" (see John 13:35)

The first century miracles were not the personal, small scale affirmations of "faith" we see today (my mother came to me in the night and said she loved me) , they were systematic, often public wide scale demonstrations of Divine favour for a group; performed at the hands of or through the approbation of that groups leaders, that included the raising of the dead!

2 TIMOTHY 3:16-17
All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

With the completion of the holy scriptures believers would have no further need of personal revelation, they would have all they needed to keep their faith strong and bear thorough witness. Further, with the establishment of the first century congregation and the destruction of the Jewish temple, there could be no doubt of whch group now had divine favor, the spectacular miracles performed by the Apostles and the contemporaries would have served their purpose and that age would come to its end.

GALATIANS 5:19-21
“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, hatreds, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these.� (also compare Rev. 21:8)

2 THESSALONIANS 2:9
This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles. - New Living Translation

Finally, we know from Jesus that miracles and extra ordinary powerful works are not exclusive to God's servants, indeed the a devil can the bible says also enable his servants to perform powerful works. While Jesus and those he hand picked were on the earth ther could be no doubt about which miracles came from God but when they died, how then could a lerson be sure the miracle was not from the devil?

Some may claim that something from the Devil cannot procure benefits or be an uplifting experience, that is not what scripture indicates. Indeed an encounter with the devil can be as uplifting as meeting an "angel of light"! We know the Devil can quote scripture and is a master of deception so the is no reason why his demons cannot dress in a white robe with a blue sash and tell a gullible human they are the "virgin Mary" with a message from their dead mother that the will is in the cake tin. Any deceiver knows to hook and reel in his victim he must first give them something good, that is why gambling scammer first let their targets win a few rounds but only to ultimately trcknthem.

It is for this reason the bible contains warnings to test out even seemingly divine revelation from "angels" Jehovah's Witnesses will thus ask themselves:

Is this miracle/angel coming in the name of the True God JEHOVAH ?

Does this encounter reinforce the unscriptural lie that the dead can communicate with the living?

Do these "spirits" seek for humans to communicate with them instead of directly with God through Jesus?

Was the "miracle" performed in a "church" or by a minister that teaches biblical falsehoods?

Did the "miracle" serve any purpose other than for the personal gratification of the individual concerned?

These and many such consideration lead Jehovah's Witnesses to conclude that the so called "miracles" performed today are NOT of Divine origin and if they are NOT from God there is, we believe, only one other source.



JW

[imhereforyou]

[Replying to post 25 by Jagella]

Why would the Devil make "awful" music? Doesn't he want to take possession by getting people to listen to it?

I would suspect he'd make good music. But the 'awful' is my descriptor - many seem to like it

Wizards were believed to cast their spells by singing them.

Music can illicit emotions so I wouldn't be surprised

There are Dodge Demons, and I'm sure they've possessed Florida highways.

Florida drivers don't need more power that's for sure. As far as the Dodge goes (and the upcoming Super Snake) I'm not impressed.