Be Found Naked

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WebersHome
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Be Found Naked

Post #1

Post by WebersHome »

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Paul wrote a curious comment in one of his letters to the Christians at Corinth that goes like this:

"We know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven; inasmuch as we, having put it on, shall not be found naked. For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed, but to be clothed, in order that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life." (2Cor 5:1-4)

How is it that the death of a Christian's body puts them at risk of being caught out in the open like a hermit crab without its shell?

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Re: Be Found Naked

Post #2

Post by Divine Insight »

WebersHome wrote: How is it that the death of a Christian's body puts them at risk of being caught out in the open like a hermit crab without its shell?
Because that's the mentality that Paul was preaching from. Paul viewed humans as people being in denial of their flaws. The idea of being caught "naked" before the Lord is to simply imply that the denial will no longer be possible and that the flaws will be revealed as in being made "naked".

This theme may not have originated with Paul, but Paul had certainly made this theme extremely popular in Christianity via his writings that have been embraced by the Christians as "sacred scriptures".

So the idea is that Paul was supposedly revealing what God himself is thinking.

That's a large part of the idea behind Christianity.

I personally see Paul's theology as failing miserably because there are many non-Christians and secularists who are fully aware that they have many flaws. So the idea that they are in denial of their flaws is a misguided idea to begin with.

Just my thoughts for whatever they might be worth.
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Post #3

Post by bluethread »

Paul is referring to an idiom derive from Genesis. In that account, naked is an archetype for being vulnerable. Paul is using the analogy to discuss the difference between "clothing" that leaves one vulnerable and "clothing" that truly provides protection.

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Re: Be Found Naked

Post #4

Post by Tcg »

[Replying to post 1 by WebersHome]

This is simply Paul referring to the mythological idea that believers will be getting some kind of heavenly body after they die. There is no need to complicate it. It's a very straightforward myth.

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Post #5

Post by Divine Insight »

Actually everyone is right. Paul's ramblings are so incoherent that it's anyone's guess what might have been going through his mind at the time. He was clearly distraught and having serious delusions.

The reference I gave is just one of many Christian interpretations. In fact, this is why there are so many disagreeing Christian demoninations. No two Christians can agree on any of this stuff. And obviously the greatest divide of all is between the Catholics and Protestants. Although "Protestantism" hardly means much of anything since since the protesting Protestants not only protest against the Catholic views but they protest against other Protestant views as well.

So what can "Protestantism" even mean other than to protest against other views?

They can't even agree with each other. So once Catholicism is abandoned and the Pope no longer has the final say in matters of interpretations, then it becomes a free-for-all where anyone's opinion is just as good as anyone else's opinion.

Anything outside of Catholicism is a free-for-all. And of course, even within Catholicism it's a free-for-all as every new Pope has different ideas from the preceding Popes. So even Catholicism doesn't really have any consistent foundation.
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Post #6

Post by ttruscott »

bluethread wrote: Paul is referring to an idiom derive from Genesis. In that account, naked is an archetype for being vulnerable. Paul is using the analogy to discuss the difference between "clothing" that leaves one vulnerable and "clothing" that truly provides protection.
Naked is also metaphor for being sinful: Rev 3: 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

The white clothes to wear to cover their nakedness refers to a holy lifestyle, Revelation 19:8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God's holy people.) opposite the filthy rags of our righteousness as sinners in Isa 64:6..

How were Adam and Eve vulnerable, needing protection in the garden? And if that is what was being written about, why, when their eyes were opened to their sin, did they see their nakedness which they had previous to eating? PCE theology contends that they were sinful before they ate and eating did not change their sinfulness, it just opened their eyes to it so they finally felt shame.

I doubt if this was in Paul's mind when he penned his thoughts about a spirit being naked without a body...
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Be Found Naked

Post #7

Post by WebersHome »

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I encounter people quite often on internet forums who sincerely believe that human existence is entirely physical. But Paul speaks of the physical aspect as merely a residence rather than an existence.

I have no clue what a disembodied human looks like; but I suspect from passages like Heb 12:23 and 1Pet 3:19-20 that my eyes cannot see them with any more ease than they can see radio waves.

But I also suspect, from Luke 16:19-31, that though my eyes are unable to see disembodied humans; they themselves are somehow visible to each other.
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Re: Be Found Naked

Post #8

Post by Divine Insight »

WebersHome wrote: [font=Verdana]-
I encounter people quite often on internet forums who sincerely believe that human existence is entirely physical. But Paul speaks of the physical aspect as merely a residence rather than an existence.

I have no clue what a disembodied human looks like; but I suspect from passages like Heb 12:23 and 1Pet 3:19-20 that my eyes cannot see them with any more ease than they can see radio waves.

But I also suspect, from Luke 16:19-31, that though my eyes are unable to see disembodied humans; they themselves are somehow visible to each other.
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The notion of disembodied humans is incompatible with Christianity. Christianity has Christ rising physically from the dead and then taking his physical body with him as he ascends to heaven. Therefore in Christianity it must be necessarily to be physically resurrected and have your physical body transported upward into heaven just like Jesus.

In fact, even that story contains all manner of problems. Why was Jesus' body not magically restored to perfect physical condition when he was resurrected from the dead? According to the Gospel rumors he retained all his wounds.

This brings up all manner of questions. For example if Jesus had been beheaded would he have needed to carry his head around with him in his hands when he was resurrected? Or would his head have been magically reattached to his body?

Also what happens to people who are burned to death? Are they resurrected as a charred piece of charcoal? What about others who were blown to pieces in an explosion? Or those who have been dead for so long their bodies were eaten by worms or cremated to extreme ashes?

There are tons of problems with the idea of bodies being physically resurrected.

And keep in mind that it wasn't only Jesus who supposedly did this. Matthew has a multitude of Saints being physically jostled from their graves and climbing out to also be resurrected.

Have Christians truly given any serious consideration to these ancient fables? Things just don't add up.

Disembodied humans in heaven makes no sense in Christianity. There would be no need for physical bodies being resurrected from graves if that were the case.
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Re: Be Found Naked

Post #9

Post by ttruscott »

WebersHome wrote:But I also suspect, from Luke 16:19-31, that though my eyes are unable to see disembodied humans; they themselves are somehow visible to each other.
Yes, a long held tradition in Christianity as per 2 Kings 6:16 So he answered, "Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them." 17 And Elisha prayed, "Open his eyes, LORD, so that he may see." Then the LORD opened the servant's eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Be Found Naked

Post #10

Post by WebersHome »

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Divine Insight wrote:[font=Georgia]The notion of disembodied humans is incompatible with Christianity. Christianity has Christ rising physically from the dead and then taking his physical body with him as he ascends to heaven. Therefore in Christianity it must be necessarily to be physically resurrected and have your physical body transported upward into heaven just like Jesus.[/font]
[font=Verdana]According to Matt 10:28, the body and the soul are perishable. However; though the body is perishable by any means, the soul is perishable only by divine means; i.e. the deaths of body and soul aren't necessarily simultaneous, viz: the soul lives on until such a time as God decides to give it either a thumb up or a thumb down.

Well; according to John 5:24, Christ's believing followers all have eternal life; which is an indestructible kind of life. Therefore the souls of his believing followers easily survive the death of their bodies.

What's the status of those eternal souls now? Well; for sure they are disembodied due to the fact that none of the dead bodies of Christ's believing followers have been resurrected yet because according to 1Thess 4:13-18, they will be resurrected all at once rather than individually.
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