Why doesn't the Devil show himself?

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Why doesn't the Devil show himself?

Post #1

Post by Willum »

So we have all heard the arguments on why God won't show himself and instantly convert the entire world to beneficence.

But what is preventing the Devil, Satan, Lucifer etc., from revealing himself with opposite intent?
He is not proscribed from doing so by any reason is he? and if he existed, he certainly, through the power of positive proof, lies, and any misconstrue, he would certainly be able to get people to believe anything in lines with his own goals...
why doesn't he?

Let's assume for purposes of the OP, that this creature, Satan, and his legion of fallen angels, exist.

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Re: Why doesn't the Devil show himself?

Post #31

Post by shnarkle »

Willum wrote: So we have all heard the arguments on why God won't show himself and instantly convert the entire world to beneficence.

But what is preventing the Devil, Satan, Lucifer etc., from revealing himself with opposite intent?
He is not proscribed from doing so by any reason is he? and if he existed, he certainly, through the power of positive proof, lies, and any misconstrue, he would certainly be able to get people to believe anything in lines with his own goals...
why doesn't he?

Let's assume for purposes of the OP, that this creature, Satan, and his legion of fallen angels, exist.
God and Satan rule over two completely different worlds. God rules over a perfect world while Satan rules over a rotten broken world. Which description fits the world you live in? Now this may not seem to you to reveal Satan himself, but there's a story of the big fish and the two guppies who meet that points out why. The big fish asks the two guppies he meets on his way up the river, "How's the water?", as the two guppies swim by, one says to the other, "What's water?" You don't notice it when you're in it. You have to get out of it to see it clearly. You can't see Satan when you're in the belly of the beast. How's it feel? If you don't mind it, then there's really no reason to bother looking for anything better, and certainly no reason to look for God or Satan. It simply doesn't matter.

It is only those who recognize evil for what it is, and see it at it's deepest level for what it is, and do something about it. The rest are completely blind, and there are none so blind as those who will not see.

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Re: Why doesn't the Devil show himself?

Post #32

Post by marco »

shnarkle wrote:
God and Satan rule over two completely different worlds.
And you know this because....?
shnarkle wrote:
The big fish asks the two guppies he meets on his way up the river, "How's the water?", as the two guppies swim by, one says to the other, "What's water?" You don't notice it when you're in it. You have to get out of it to see it clearly. You can't see Satan when you're in the belly of the beast.
Interesting that the big fish was more conscious of its medium than the smaller ones. Size matters then? These analogies are pretty useless; they simply offer somebody's private view on morality and there's no way one can test the suitability.
shnarkle wrote:
It is only those who recognize evil for what it is, and see it at it's deepest level for what it is, and do something about it.
You've broken out of your grammatical restrictions here. The reader is left to guess what benefits are given to those connoisseurs of evil. I think the world and its aunt recognise evil without reference to dragons and leviathans. Poets and artists also give us imaginative pictures of the Devil.

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Re: Why doesn't the Devil show himself?

Post #33

Post by shnarkle »

[Replying to post 32 by marco]
God and Satan rule over two completely different worlds.
And you know this because....?
It's a given in the OP
He is not proscribed from doing so by any reason is he? and if he existed, he certainly, through the power of positive proof, lies, and any misconstrue, he would certainly be able to get people to believe anything in lines with his own goals...
why doesn't he?
Despite his contradiction, I am going along with his premise that Satan is able to get people to believe anything in lines with his own goals, and he is revealed as the ruler of this screwed up world. He asks why doesn't he reveal himself, and I'm pointing out that he is revealed through the screwed up world itself. A screwed up world doesn't necessarily indicate a benevolent perfect god.
shnarkle wrote:
The big fish asks the two guppies he meets on his way up the river, "How's the water?", as the two guppies swim by, one says to the other, "What's water?" You don't notice it when you're in it. You have to get out of it to see it clearly. You can't see Satan when you're in the belly of the beast.
Interesting that the big fish was more conscious of its medium than the smaller ones. Size matters then?
To a large fish in a small pool, it most certainly does.
These analogies are pretty useless; they simply offer somebody's private view on morality and there's no way one can test the suitability.
The analogy has nothing to do with morality. It has to do with the fact that a fish isn't aware of what it's in until it has something to compare it to such as open air. One has to be around long enough to experience the lack of oxygen to become aware of the necessity of its presence. By the same token one won't likely know their sick unless they've experienced what it feels like to be well, and when one is swimming in an undifferentiated morass of lies, those lies can never be the foundation, nor the means for discerning the truth.
shnarkle wrote:
It is only those who recognize evil for what it is, and see it at it's deepest level for what it is, and do something about it.
You've broken out of your grammatical restrictions here.
My bad. "It is only those who recognize evil at it's deepest level, and do something about it."
The reader is left to guess what benefits are given to those connoisseurs of evil.
Those who don't fully recognize it within themselves will never recognize it anywhere else either. This isn't to say that people won't naturally project those evils onto others while simultaneously denying them in themselves. The fact is that they can only see the evil in the world around them to the extent that they can see it in themselves. This is why people come up with stories about figures who are born "in sinful flesh" that are "tempted of the devil" and overcome or slay those dragons and demons in their lives. They defeat the flesh, and this becomes their glory. With the sinful flesh dead, they are free to live without the presence of evil in their lives. It's a quite simple mythologiocal idea, and as old as the imagination of the first human being.
I think the world and its aunt recognise evil without reference to dragons and leviathans.
Then they will never slay the dragons in their lives, nor tear the leviathan to pieces to make a better world for themselves or others.
Poets and artists also give us imaginative pictures of the Devil.
Their imagination isn't coming up with it for no good reason either. Some of us have devils to contend with, and some don't see them anywhere. This spotlights the different camps. One is the camp that has no evil to begin with, hence they see no evil anywhere. Then there are those who are oblivious of sin in themselves, yet see it in others. They're simply in denial. Then there are those who are so full of evil that they are oblivious of it anywhere, and rush head long into the pit of hell without ever knowing it. They seem quite evil to the rest of us, but they themselves have no idea what anyone else is talking about. They have no conscience. Evil is meaningless to them, until paradoxically they experience the opposite. They are the one's who recognize it for what it is. They slay the serpents, and pick up the pieces to build a new world without evil. No one else sees them because they're still living in a world where they've befriended the dragons in their lives. They live quite comfortably in the burning belly of the beast; so comfortable it's unimaginable to conceive of evil devils or Satan.

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Post #34

Post by Wootah »

shnarkle wrote:The rest are completely blind, and there are none so blind as those who will not see.
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Hi Snarkle,

If you really believe what you posted why would you bother debating with the blind?

Please use arguments to demonstrate your beliefs and avoid any insults.

Please review the Rules.


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Re: Why doesn't the Devil show himself?

Post #35

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 27 by FarWanderer]
No, the problem is that the title of the thread presupposes he hasn't revealed himself, while you are also arguing that the most logical way for him to do so would be without our knowledge.
Of course it presupposes this:
Can you point out any creatures around the planet that claims to be divine AND have wings, healing abilities, glow, or show any talents we would consider above mortal stature?

The supposition is that if the Devil revealed himself with repeatable miraculous ability, people would be confronted with the certainty of his miracles, vs. God being unable to show any... what would you believe?

A logical person would believe the reality, which would be the Devil's real powers... and God would be a chump.

[Replying to post 31 by shnarkle]
God and Satan rule over two completely different worlds. God rules over a perfect world while Satan rules over a rotten broken world.
Point of order, this world is a wonderful paradise. The only thing making it ill is man. Is man the Devil, and if so, what does this make God's world?

If the only difference between the Devil's realm and God's realm is how man treats each other, then...
?

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Re: Why doesn't the Devil show himself?

Post #36

Post by marco »

shnarkle wrote: [Replying to post 32 by marco]
God and Satan rule over two completely different worlds.
And you know this because....?
It's a given in the OP
Then it was a private donation. The putative existence of God and Satan is a given not their spheres of jurisdiction.
shnarkle wrote:
The analogy has nothing to do with morality. It has to do with the fact that a fish isn't aware of what it's in until it has something to compare it to such as open air.
Well it's your analogy and one must accept what you propose as its purpose. However it relates, albeit in a nebulous fashion, to awareness of evil. That has some relation to morality, I think.
shnarkle wrote:
Then there are those who are so full of evil that they are oblivious of it anywhere, and rush head long into the pit of hell without ever knowing it.
I think the analysis and dissection of what constitutes evil is a little more complex than the picture you paint. There exist evil people well aware of the fact they are evil. But I accept you are moving away from reality to paint a portrait of a being you don't know. Artists have done this superbly well.

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Re: Why doesn't the Devil show himself?

Post #37

Post by shnarkle »

Willum wrote: [Replying to post 27 by FarWanderer]
No, the problem is that the title of the thread presupposes he hasn't revealed himself, while you are also arguing that the most logical way for him to do so would be without our knowledge.
Of course it presupposes this:
Can you point out any creatures around the planet that claims to be divine AND have wings, healing abilities, glow, or show any talents we would consider above mortal stature?
There are numerous examples of people who claim to be divine. Some claim to be God. If we look at some of the biblical texts we see this is something that is pointed out. There will be many making these claims. Christ was the first to point out that he could destroy the Temple and rebuild it in three days. Of course he was referring to who he is as Christ. Some would claim that he was referring to himself, but this flies in the face of his own teachings to "deny yourself". Therefore he isn't referring to himself or his body, but to who he is as Christ.


So those who claim to be God or Christ are doing exactly what the biblical texts claim they would naturally do, and we even see people flying. They jump off the tops of mountain peaks and fly all the way down to the ground which "we would consider above mortal stature" wouldn't we? There are numerous people who claim to have healing abilities and those who claim they've been healed by them. They will wave CT scans showing the tumors they had and the CT scans showing the absence of the tumors as well. They are showing that they were healed by God which is exactly what the texts state about the antichrist.
The supposition is that if the Devil revealed himself with repeatable miraculous ability, people would be confronted with the certainty of his miracles, vs. God being unable to show any... what would you believe?
The texts suggest that the whole world would believe the miracles.
A logical person would believe the reality, which would be the Devil's real powers... and God would be a chump.
Again, this is what the texts suggest as well. The whole world will believe this magic show, and it should come as no surprise given that this is how most people view Christ's resurrection. They view it as if Christ were suggesting that he was going to physically die and then emerge from his tomb three days later with outstretched arms and trumpet blasts "TA-DAH"!!!

This is nothing compared to what modern day magicians can do in front of countless home viewers on their television screens.

[Replying to post 31 by shnarkle]
God and Satan rule over two completely different worlds. God rules over a perfect world while Satan rules over a rotten broken world.
Point of order, this world is a wonderful paradise. The only thing making it ill is man. Is man the Devil, and if so, what does this make God's world?
Humanity is created in the image of God, but humanity only reflects God's image when human beings look towards God. When human beings become self reflective they reflect the world. We can see this in the biblical narratives. Peter is said to be blessed in being able to receive revelation from God as to Christ's identity, but then a few seconds later, he is referred to as Satan because he is no longer looking to God for revelation, but to himself. When we look to ourselves for answers we are worshipping ourselves and turning this world into a hell on earth.
If the only difference between the Devil's realm and God's realm is how man treats each other, then...
?
It isn't merely how we treat each other, but how we see each other. If we see Christ in our midst we might treat each other with a bit more respect, although if we don't want to see Christ we might do what the gospel narratives suggest and have him crucified.

The thing is that those who have recieved Christ have denied themselves so crucifying their body is anticlimactic. They've already stepped into eternity with "the twinkling of an eye". They see Christ in their neighbors and death means nothing to them anymore. They are no longer self absorbed. They are no longer naked and ashamed. They no longer desire to be like God because they can see that they are just like God already. They were created in God's image.


The biblical narratives present us with a mirror. In the beginning we see God creating man in God's image. In the end we see man creating God in man's image. In the beginning we see God creating a paradise on earth. In the end we see humanity in the form of antichrist creating a hell on earth.

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Re: Why doesn't the Devil show himself?

Post #38

Post by shnarkle »

marco wrote:
shnarkle wrote: [Replying to post 32 by marco]
God and Satan rule over two completely different worlds.
It's a given in the OP
Then it was a private donation. The putative existence of God and Satan is a given not their spheres of jurisdiction.
No, it wasn't. This is within the forum and context of " Christianity and Apologetics". The biblical texts which are fundamental to Christianity state:
2 Corinthians 4:4 4The god of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers,...etc."
Matthew 4:8-9 8 "Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9"All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."
shnarkle wrote:
The analogy has nothing to do with morality. It has to do with the fact that a fish isn't aware of what it's in until it has something to compare it to such as open air.
Well it's your analogy and one must accept what you propose as its purpose. However it relates, albeit in a nebulous fashion, to awareness of evil. That has some relation to morality, I think.
Correct, but as the analogy indicates those who are unaware, can't relate.
shnarkle wrote:
Then there are those who are so full of evil that they are oblivious of it anywhere, and rush head long into the pit of hell without ever knowing it.
I think the analysis and dissection of what constitutes evil is a little more complex than the picture you paint.
I don't get the impression you're looking at the whole picture.
There exist evil people well aware of the fact they are evil.
That's part of the picture. What's your point?
But I accept you are moving away from reality to paint a portrait of a being you don't know.
One can't paint what they don't know.

Artists have done this superbly well.
They paint what they know superbly well, and what they know is within them, and from their imagination. Artists practice to paint or sculpt what they see. Their skill is in what they know.

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Re: Why doesn't the Devil show himself?

Post #39

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 38 by shnarkle]

Point of order: God and Satan ruling over two spheres is not an assumption of the topic.
There are numerous examples of people who claim to be divine. Some claim to be God,
If you make this claim, you 1. Must show support for it, and 2. Must show that the average person would have some reason to suspect their powers, otherwise you are betraying the topic;s scope.

In short, suggestions and scripture don't cut it. The Devil either showing himself or not, him not showing himself, is not proof he is showing himself; such a proposition is as a talking snake.

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Re: Why doesn't the Devil show himself?

Post #40

Post by shnarkle »

[Replying to post 39 by Willum]
Point of order: God and Satan ruling over two spheres is not an assumption of the topic.
Of course it is. If you are under the impression that your topic doesn't assume this then you've posted it in the wrong section. This is "Christianity and Apologetics", and Christianity assumes according to the Christian scriptures that this world is the sphere of the devil. I posted the relevant passages to support this fact.

Here they are again:
2 Corinthians 4:4 4The god of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers,...etc."
Matthew 4:8-9 8 "Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9"All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."


I also pointed out that the texts indicate that it is we who make ourselves out to be god in this world. We are the devil. I gave the example of the mirror quality of Genesis and Revelation in showing that the Genesis account portrays God creating man in God's image while Revelation shows man creating God in man's own image. Look around and the devils are everywhere shooting up people in schools, dropping bombs on innocent people everywhere. Wasn't it you who pointed out that the world isn't what's wrong, but the people in it? I rest my case. The devil can now be seen for who he really is.
There are numerous examples of people who claim to be divine. Some claim to be God,
If you make this claim, you 1. Must show support for it,
I gave some examples of people who literally fly already, but here are some more:


Pharaohs
3150 BCE–30 BCE
Egyptian pharaohs were kings of Ancient Eg…
Japanese emperors
660 BCE–1945 CE
Claimed, at least by some Shintoists,
Chinese emperors
221 BCE–1911 CE
Deified as "Sons of Heaven" since the Qin D ynasty…
Roman emperors
42 BCE – 363 CE
Following Julius Caesar in 42 BCE
Natchez rulers
700 CE
The Natchez were a theocracy …
The Sailendras
700 CE
The Sailendra dynasty of Java
and 2. Must show that the average person would have some reason to suspect their powers,
I gave the examples of people flying from the tops of tall peaks all the way to the ground unharmed as well as those who wave their CT scans with tumors and their CT scans without tumors following their healing. They suspect that the faith healer healed them.
otherwise you are betraying the topic;s scope.
No, I'm well within the scope of this topic, and gave the example of those who fly. Here it is again:
So those who claim to be God or Christ are doing exactly what the biblical texts claim they would naturally do, and we even see people flying. They jump off the tops of mountain peaks and fly all the way down to the ground which "we would consider above mortal stature" wouldn't we?

In short, suggestions and scripture don't cut it.
They do when this is "Christianity and Apologetics" and when I'm supporting the texts with examples from the world we live in that match those descriptions. This is life imitating art. When the texts indicate that the unrestrained ego will make itself out to be God, and we see this played out throughout history with the likes of a Stalin, or a Mao, who were able to manifest a level of evil that is nothing less than godlike, I"m not only cutting it, I'm proving my point. The texts stated
the heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can know it?


"All things" would necessarily include the devil himself, and if the rhetorical question is to be taken seriously, then God only knows just how evil the human heart really is. This doesn't mean we can't have an idea ourselves though, and those of us who have taken some time to examine our motives, our decisions will sometimes see the validity of what they're saying. When I see some kid walk into a school or a theater, or a diner and open fire, I see the devil in them. They hate the entire world, and want to destroy it. The texts call him the destroyer. Perhaps the evil you see around you isn't as evil in your eyes. This doesn't refute my position. It just means you don't see it as all that evil. For me 100 million people exterminated is pretty evil, and just because some people require some guy with a goatee, horns on his head in a red suit, a pitch fork and a bifurcated tail to appear to validate their own imagination doesn't mean we all have to conform to these ideas to prove our points.
The Devil either showing himself or not,
Right, and when someone sees themselves as pure evil and acts upon that vision, the devil has shown himself. Again, this is way beyond the bounds of normal human behavior which is what you required. It is also well within the bounds of this forum, especially when the texts indicate that the devil is none other than oneself. It is no coincidence that there are many who can't look at themselves in the mirror because of this simple fact.

My argument is supported by the fact that the texts aren't portraying historical facts, but indicating some of the realities of human existence. No one is born with an identity, and it takes quite a while for one to develop even while being immersed in an environmet that forces this identity upon each and every one of us. This is the devil of the bible. Our egos are what tempt us to rule over others. They are what tempt us to jump off the tops of mountains and not have so much as a bruised heel. Christ tells his ego to begone, and to stop tempting him. The rest of the world isn't so successful, and therefore we get to see the devil at work in the self absorbed around us. My arguments are quite simple and easy to follow. The rest of them are found in post 37. They're well within the boundaries and scope of this topic. If you have some reasons you'd like to present as to why they're not sound arguments or why you feel that they're not suitable for a discussion within "Christianity and Apologetics" I can't wait to hear them. I'm sure you can see them quite clearly. If not, then the moderator who commented on my post needs to retract their comment.

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