"I don't care"

[imhereforyou]

Many times society hears "The bible says..." or "God says..."
This could be in reference to many things: sex, drugs, rock-n-roll, dancing, smoking, homosexuality, false witness....the list is long depending on whom is being asked.
Surely, as a Christian, one would care what God says or thinks about this or that.
But if you're not a Christian, why would you care?

Christian Joe tells non-Christian Bertha that "X" is a sin. Bertha doesn't care. And Bertha's sin doesn't negatively impact anyone else. Joe is flabbergasted that Bertha doesn't care. Should be be surprised?

What makes any Christian think that any non-Christian would give 2¢ about what they say God says or thinks?

If you don't believe in sin/Hell as taught by many modern Christians, why would anyone think you, as a 'heathen' should/would care?

For discussion:
What power does the phrase "The bible/God says...." hold today?
If nothing, what phrased should be used to get the attention of these 'heathens'?
Or, are actions enough and should words themselves be eliminated from the equation (actions speak louder than words)? Or are words easier than actions?

[Overcomer]

i'mhereforyou wrote:

Christian Joe tells non-Christian Bertha that "X" is a sin. Bertha doesn't care. And Bertha's sin doesn't negatively impact anyone else. Joe is flabbergasted that Bertha doesn't care. Should he be surprised?

If Bertha is engaged in something that is detrimental to herself, whether it's called a sin or a bad habit or an addiction or a problem or whatever, isn't that enough to make one want to speak up and help her whether one is a Christian or a Buddhist or an atheist or a secular humanist or whatever?

I don't know what kind of experiences you've had, but where I come from, we just try to help people. We don't walk into people's lives and call them sinners and tell them to smarten up or else they'll go to hell. It isn't about condemnation. It's about having compassion and caring enough about people to come alongside them and offer a helping hand if they need and want it.

If I were Bertha and didn't believe in God or see the Bible as His Word, I'm sure that I would NOT care if somebody tried to get me to clean up my act based on the threat of eternity in hell because of my so-called sins. It would just make me angry that somebody was preaching to me.

But I WOULD react positively to somebody who honestly and unconditionally cared about me as a person. And, as a I said, that kind of caring shouldn't belong only to the Christian, but to the atheist, the Buddhist, the secular humanist, etc., as well. It should be our response to another human being, no matter what our beliefs about God.

[imhereforyou]

[Replying to post 2 by Overcomer]

isn't that enough to make one want to speak up and help her whether one is a Christian or a Buddhist or an atheist or a secular humanist or whatever?

What business is it of the person that thinks they should say something? Do they think they know better? That their moral character is superior to hers? Or do they just get kicks of telling others how to live?

where I come from, we just try to help people.

If someone wants help, that's great. But if Bertha is smoking in her own home, what business is it of anyone else to say something to her?

Surely if Bertha is in public blowing smoke in your face, speak up. But otherwise, it's no one's business how she conducts herself privately but hers.

But I WOULD react positively to somebody who honestly and unconditionally cared about me as a person.

Great. But let's not think everyone would (or should) respond in the same manner.

When we start thinking everyone should behave as we do, in a world of billions with almost as many individual beliefs, that's when we start seeing some problems with inter-personal relationships.

[Tart]

Sin, judgement, righteousness, etc... These things are Christian values, but even if you arent a christian, these things still reflect the reality we live in today.... A lot of people get mad at the notion of hell, but we lock people up in prisons all the time...

Personally, I think Christians reflects reality, and whether you believe it or not doesnt really matter. If you dont beleive in our legal system, and in our laws, the judge is still going to convict you of any crime you commit.

Christianity is true in the reality we live in today.. And certainly the legal system, the courts, police officers, juries and judges reflects the same kind of thing that the Christian God represents what we talk about sin and judgement.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 1 by imhereforyou]

What power does the phrase "The bible/God says...." hold today?

It's hard to say. Even Christians disagree vociferously over what the Bible says or what their version of God might say.

If nothing, what phrased should be used to get the attention of these 'heathens'?

"Bikini Babes in the Church" would get my attention!

Or, are actions enough and should words themselves be eliminated from the equation (actions speak louder than words)? Or are words easier than actions?

If you acted in such a way as to demonstrate that there really is a God behind you, then it would get me thinking. A verifiable miracle on your part or a prophecy you utter that actually comes to pass would be helpful.

[steveb1]

Many times society hears "The bible says..." or "God says..."
This could be in reference to many things: sex, drugs, rock-n-roll, dancing, smoking, homosexuality, false witness....the list is long depending on whom is being asked.
Surely, as a Christian, one would care what God says or thinks about this or that.
But if you're not a Christian, why would you care?

Christian Joe tells non-Christian Bertha that "X" is a sin. Bertha doesn't care. And Bertha's sin doesn't negatively impact anyone else. Joe is flabbergasted that Bertha doesn't care. Should be be surprised?

What makes any Christian think that any non-Christian would give 2¢ about what they say God says or thinks?

If you don't believe in sin/Hell as taught by many modern Christians, why would anyone think you, as a 'heathen' should/would care?

For discussion:
What power does the phrase "The bible/God says...." hold today?
If nothing, what phrased should be used to get the attention of these 'heathens'?
Or, are actions enough and should words themselves be eliminated from the equation (actions speak louder than words)? Or are words easier than actions?

As a non-Christian (a panentheist and Jodo Shinshu Buddhist), I do care about "what the Bible says" because it is a deposit of thousands of years of spiritual wisdom and transforming information, such as can be found in the words of the Prophets and the parables of Jesus. The difference being that I do not regard the Bible as the inerrant "Word of God". But I do believe it contains many nuggets of spiritual value.

[imhereforyou]

Many times society hears "The bible says..." or "God says..."
This could be in reference to many things: sex, drugs, rock-n-roll, dancing, smoking, homosexuality, false witness....the list is long depending on whom is being asked.
Surely, as a Christian, one would care what God says or thinks about this or that.
But if you're not a Christian, why would you care?

Christian Joe tells non-Christian Bertha that "X" is a sin. Bertha doesn't care. And Bertha's sin doesn't negatively impact anyone else. Joe is flabbergasted that Bertha doesn't care. Should be be surprised?

What makes any Christian think that any non-Christian would give 2¢ about what they say God says or thinks?

If you don't believe in sin/Hell as taught by many modern Christians, why would anyone think you, as a 'heathen' should/would care?

For discussion:
What power does the phrase "The bible/God says...." hold today?
If nothing, what phrased should be used to get the attention of these 'heathens'?
Or, are actions enough and should words themselves be eliminated from the equation (actions speak louder than words)? Or are words easier than actions?

As a non-Christian (a panentheist and Jodo Shinshu Buddhist), I do care about "what the Bible says" because it is a deposit of thousands of years of spiritual wisdom and transforming information, such as can be found in the words of the Prophets and the parables of Jesus. The difference being that I do not regard the Bible as the inerrant "Word of God". But I do believe it contains many nuggets of spiritual value.

Thank you for the post. You make a good and valuable point.
In your experience, where (or how) did you make such a determination that's it's not the word of God but still valuable?
And do you think all of it is valuable (do you agree with all of it?)?

[1213]

…What power does the phrase "The bible/God says...." hold today?

Has it really ever hold? In ancient times it seems to be based generally on the force (in large groups). And for some rare cases it is based on that person has right understanding. Nowadays Church doesn’t have similar ability to use force than in earlier times, so things should be explained, why they are wrong or right. At least for me, it is not about who says, but about why things are said, or why something is wrong or right. If something is wrong, I think it should not depend on who says it, but on reasoning. In my opinion it is not good that people often follow teachings they like blindly, with no good reasons.

[steveb1]

Many times society hears "The bible says..." or "God says..."
This could be in reference to many things: sex, drugs, rock-n-roll, dancing, smoking, homosexuality, false witness....the list is long depending on whom is being asked.
Surely, as a Christian, one would care what God says or thinks about this or that.
But if you're not a Christian, why would you care?

Christian Joe tells non-Christian Bertha that "X" is a sin. Bertha doesn't care. And Bertha's sin doesn't negatively impact anyone else. Joe is flabbergasted that Bertha doesn't care. Should be be surprised?

What makes any Christian think that any non-Christian would give 2¢ about what they say God says or thinks?

If you don't believe in sin/Hell as taught by many modern Christians, why would anyone think you, as a 'heathen' should/would care?

For discussion:
What power does the phrase "The bible/God says...." hold today?
If nothing, what phrased should be used to get the attention of these 'heathens'?
Or, are actions enough and should words themselves be eliminated from the equation (actions speak louder than words)? Or are words easier than actions?

As a non-Christian (a panentheist and Jodo Shinshu Buddhist), I do care about "what the Bible says" because it is a deposit of thousands of years of spiritual wisdom and transforming information, such as can be found in the words of the Prophets and the parables of Jesus. The difference being that I do not regard the Bible as the inerrant "Word of God". But I do believe it contains many nuggets of spiritual value.

Thank you for the post. You make a good and valuable point.
In your experience, where (or how) did you make such a determination that's it's not the word of God but still valuable?
And do you think all of it is valuable (do you agree with all of it?)?

Thanks. I think that scripture is valuable because it does not really need to be the revelation of a deity n order for it to contain spiritual truth, wisdom, and directives. .. just as in Buddhism, where its scriptures are highly esteemed even though they are not considered to be the revelations of a god.

For me, spiritual value, spiritual truth, is that which leads one toward growth, transformation, union/communion with God, Enlightenment, etc. Such things do not need to be revealed from on high, but are typically discovered by mystics like the Buddha, sages who then attempt to communicate both the experience and the means of attaining it. The Bible contains nuggets of such encounters with, and disclosures of, the Spirit or God or the Holy. I see the Bible, at least in part, not as God's word, but rather as a record of human experiences of God, some individual, others "en masse".

As such, the Bible illustrates how certain people encountered God, how they reacted to the encounter, and how they taught and interpreted it. This is especially so in the Gospels' portrait of Jesus and particularly in his "parables of the Kingdom", where he describes transcendent matters through metaphor and allegory. "What is the Kingdom like?", he asks, and he says "Consider the lilies". Moreover, he seems to have taught a "Way" or "Path" of spiritual transformation through dying to ego (ego defined as the anxious, grasping self: "To find yourself you must lose yourself" / "Take up your cross daily") - followed by "rising again" into a new life centered in God rather than in the world with its enslaving cultural mandates. Paul seems to have applied this formula to baptism, which Paul conceives as a dying-and-rising with Christ.

So, I find certain "Enlightenment teachings" in scripture, even though I do not think that it was directly revealed by an intervening deity.

[imhereforyou]

[Replying to post 8 by 1213]

Church doesn’t have similar ability to use force than in earlier times, so things should be explained, why they are wrong or right.

Shouldn't that have been that way since the beginning? In other words, why should we use reason now and not then? Was something happening to suspend reason and explanation or was it all about power and influence? Just looking for your opinion here.