"I don't care"

[imhereforyou]

Many times society hears "The bible says..." or "God says..."
This could be in reference to many things: sex, drugs, rock-n-roll, dancing, smoking, homosexuality, false witness....the list is long depending on whom is being asked.
Surely, as a Christian, one would care what God says or thinks about this or that.
But if you're not a Christian, why would you care?

Christian Joe tells non-Christian Bertha that "X" is a sin. Bertha doesn't care. And Bertha's sin doesn't negatively impact anyone else. Joe is flabbergasted that Bertha doesn't care. Should be be surprised?

What makes any Christian think that any non-Christian would give 2¢ about what they say God says or thinks?

If you don't believe in sin/Hell as taught by many modern Christians, why would anyone think you, as a 'heathen' should/would care?

For discussion:
What power does the phrase "The bible/God says...." hold today?
If nothing, what phrased should be used to get the attention of these 'heathens'?
Or, are actions enough and should words themselves be eliminated from the equation (actions speak louder than words)? Or are words easier than actions?

[1213]

Shouldn't that have been that way since the beginning? In other words, why should we use reason now and not then? Was something happening to suspend reason and explanation or was it all about power and influence? Just looking for your opinion here.

I think it was originally about reason, but when more people became disciples of Jesus, it attracted power hungry people, who really have not cared what Jesus taught, and they led to many wrong and bad ideas.

And these are few examples why I think it was about reason:

Instead, test everything. Hold on to what is good, but keep away from every kind of evil.
First Epistle to the Thessalonians 5:21

Now the natural man doesn't receive the things of God's Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can't know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual discerns all things, and he himself is judged by no one.
1 Cor. 2:14-15

Also, because eternal life is for righteous and righteousness is wisdom of the just, I think reasoning is important thing and loyalty to God should be based on reasoning, not to force.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

[jgh7]

For discussion:
What power does the phrase "The bible/God says...." hold today?
If nothing, what phrased should be used to get the attention of these 'heathens'?
Or, are actions enough and should words themselves be eliminated from the equation (actions speak louder than words)? Or are words easier than actions?

The bible says that through Jesus' name miracles will occur. Jesus commands his disciples to spread the word of the Gospel. God will draw those whom he choses to draw into Christianity.

It is not my place to say what non-believers will be moved by the words of the bible and what non-believers will not. It would be unfaithful of me to assume from the start that the words of the bible will have zero effect on all non-believers. In regards to the phrase you posed, it is possible that through the phrase "The bible/God says..." the very power of God will move a non-believer to become a believer.

[Overcomer]

jgh7 wrote:

It is not my place to say what non-believers will be moved by the words of the bible and what non-believers will not. It would be unfaithful of me to assume from the start that the words of the bible will have zero effect on all non-believers. In regards to the phrase you posed, it is possible that through the phrase "The bible/God says..." the very power of God will move a non-believer to become a believer.

Amen to that!

God put it this way:

"So is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it" (Isaiah 55:11).

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 11 by 1213]

Now the natural man doesn't receive the things of God's Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can't know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual discerns all things, and he himself is judged by no one.
1 Cor. 2:14-15

You quoted this scripture as an example of "reason"

In fact, these verses are about "spiritual discernment", which God's Spirit brings.

But "the natural man" does not have the Spirit, so uses reason and thinks that what God's Spirit reveals is foolishness.

[imhereforyou]

[Replying to post 12 by jgh7]

God will draw those whom he choses to draw into Christianity.

So if someone 'gets the short stick' they're out of luck?
Or does God pick-n-choose whom he draws?

it is possible that through the phrase "The bible/God says..." the very power of God will move a non-believer to become a believer.

Is the opposite also possible?

[jgh7]

[Replying to post 12 by jgh7]

God will draw those whom he choses to draw into Christianity.

So if someone 'gets the short stick' they're out of luck?
Or does God pick-n-choose whom he draws?

it is possible that through the phrase "The bible/God says..." the very power of God will move a non-believer to become a believer.

Is the opposite also possible?

I believe in predestination through what I have read.

John 6:44
44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

There are many other quotes about predestination but I know it is a hotly debated topic among Christians. Nonetheless, it changes nothing from my perspective since as humans we don't know who is and who is not predestined. When you ask if the opposite is possible, then yes if God chooses not to draw someone to Him.

EDIT: However when I think deeply about this there is a part of me that thinks there is more to this than my basic interpretation of predestination. One could argue "If it's simply predestination then I can just chill until God draws me to Him if He so chooses." But something about that doesn't quite seem to add up for me, so I am not confident arguing completely one way or the other about this topic.

[1213]

[Replying to post 11 by 1213]

Now the natural man doesn't receive the things of God's Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can't know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual discerns all things, and he himself is judged by no one.
1 Cor. 2:14-15

You quoted this scripture as an example of "reason"

I quoted it, because it speaks about reasoning. But maybe I understand it differently than you. I have understood “discern� means in that person examines all things. And that I think is same as reasoning. By reasoning things can be examined, are they good or bad or something else.

[marco]

Also, because eternal life is for righteous and righteousness is wisdom of the just, I think reasoning is important thing and loyalty to God should be based on reasoning, not to force.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

Reasoning is absent from belief in God. Reason tells us that "eternal punishment" is an absurdity, since whatever was done cannot possibly merit an eternity of punishment. If God's existence depends on such a belief, reason tells us to discard such a God.

[RightReason]

[Replying to imhereforyou]

Many times society hears "The bible says..." or "God says..."
This could be in reference to many things: sex, drugs, rock-n-roll, dancing, smoking, homosexuality, false witness....the list is long depending on whom is being asked.
Surely, as a Christian, one would care what God says or thinks about this or that.
But if you're not a Christian, why would you care?

You wouldn’t care if the Bible said something about those things (even though, last time I checked the Bible has very little to say about smoking, dancing, and rock-n-roll music), but you should care that the CDC as well as mental health specialists as well as scientific research often have much to say about sex, drugs, and smoking.

Christian Joe tells non-Christian Bertha that "X" is a sin. Bertha doesn't care. And Bertha's sin doesn't negatively impact anyone else.

Sin/immorality/wrong doing (however you want to label it) does have negative impact on the individual and society.

Joe is flabbergasted that Bertha doesn't care. Should be be surprised?

Don’t know too many Joe’s. Most people who recognize right from wrong/good from bad realize why people might still engage in those things and are usually understanding and less judgmental than you might think. I don’t smoke, but can certainly relate to someone choosing to smoke as a means to get thru life – I can understand wanting to take the edge off or numb the pain. Most people also recognize others often have a knee jerk reaction and put up this front that they don’t care about something when in reality they do care and wish they weren’t a slave to this passion or that, but find it too difficult to overcome so insist they don’t care. Denial is a pretty common self defense mechanism.

What makes any Christian think that any non-Christian would give 2¢ about what they say God says or thinks?

Because what God says is right and good (Truth). And human beings are attracted to truth. Christians believe God is the creator/designer of the world we live in. The world we live in works in certain ways. There is order/design/form/function to it. Now one does not have to give God the credit, but he does have to live by the laws of the world we live in. Things like . . . if you eat too much, you might get a stomach ache or fat, if you smoke you might get lung cancer, one night stands are found to be less fulfilling and satisfying than committed long term relationships, etc. This is the evidence from the world we live in. Even if you don’t want drugs to harm your body or deny that they do or say you don’t care, they in fact will still have a negative damaging effect. Regardless of belief in God. No one is exempt from natural law.

If you don't believe in sin/Hell as taught by many modern Christians, why would anyone think you, as a 'heathen' should/would care?

Again, not sure what century you live in, but haven’t heard the word ‘heathen’ in quite awhile. But again, no one would expect you to care if you were blowing your chance at heaven if you weren’t a believer (other than the fact that most people do want other people to be happy and if we believe in heaven then of course we would want to share that with you), but what we would expect is for you to care that you were making poor choices that could have negative and harmful impact on your life – this life.

For discussion:
What power does the phrase "The bible/God says...." hold today?

I always think it is funny when people think Christians believe something is right/wrong/moral/immoral because of the Bible. The truth is the reason the Bible declares something as right/wrong/moral/immoral is because it is. IOW, murder is not wrong because it is condemned in the Bible. Rather, the Bible teaches the immorality of murder because it is immoral.

what phrased should be used to get the attention of these 'heathens'?

Uuummm . . . . how about the truth about the world we live in? I would appeal to a person’s common sense and acknowledgement of science, facts, and reason.

[marco]

Uuummm . . . . how about the truth about the world we live in? I would appeal to a person’s common sense and acknowledgement of science, facts, and reason.

Then you would meet with disappointment for in our scientific world dead fish don't multiply nor corpses come to life. Move towards reason and religion says a tearful goodbye.