If it exists, it has atoms

[Willum]

So I am just putting this out there as a thought-provoker:

If something exists, it is composed of atoms or is an energy or force: Electromagnetic, Gravitational, Strong Nuclear Force, Weak Nuclear Force and Neutron Degeneracy.

Is there anything that is an exception to this conjecture?

[Neatras]

So I am just putting this out there as a thought-provoker:

If something exists, it is composed of atoms or is an energy or force: Electromagnetic, Gravitational, Strong Nuclear Force, Weak Nuclear Force and Neutron Degeneracy.

Is there anything that is an exception to this conjecture?

This isn't really in the spirit of your post, but your list consists of baryonic matter (matter that is composed of protons and neutrons), and leaves out non-baryonic matter, such as photons and other bosons. It also leaves out anti-matter (though I suppose from a certain point of view, this could be considered to be made up of atom-based particles, which are further made up of quarks).

I don't mean to be a posh pedant for the sake of sport, it genuinely makes a difference if our categorizations include the full range of possible physical states. Universe is a big place, atoms only make up <5% of all physical matter.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 2 by Neatras]

Consider bosons an oversight, and include them. Photons are electromagnetic energy, and heavy bosons (W/Z), are atoms, believe it or not.

Maybe I just should have said matter and energy...

So, if it exists...

[jgh7]

Consciousness. One can argue that it is produced from matter, but it in and of itself is not matter or energy to my knowledge.

[Neatras]

Consciousness. One can argue that it is produced from matter, but it in and of itself is not matter or energy to my knowledge.

Any more than "wetness" is produced by water molecules. It's a property of matter, an arbitrary designation for an arbitrary set of chemical interactions that requires a specific sense of scale.

Consciousness is just an emergent property of yet another segment of matter.

If we're going to assign abstracts, it'd be helpful if you offered up an example that doesn't exist solely in the mind (which is run on a physical "computer", ie the brain).

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 1 by Willum]

Computer software? Not consisting of atoms or energy and so on doesn't mean it's magic.

If we're going to assign abstracts, it'd be helpful if you offered up an example that doesn't exist solely in the mind (which is run on a physical "computer", ie the brain).

If I can say computer software, then jgh7 can say consciousness.

[benchwarmer]

[Replying to post 1 by Willum]

Computer software? Not consisting of atoms or energy and so on doesn't mean it's magic.

If we're going to assign abstracts, it'd be helpful if you offered up an example that doesn't exist solely in the mind (which is run on a physical "computer", ie the brain).

If I can say computer software, then jgh7 can say consciousness.

Technically, computer software is composed of physical things arranged in a specific order. i.e. 1's and 0's stored either on paper (initial design), on disk/storage media, or in computer memory. Software is just a set of instructions to a computer. If those instructions aren't physical, there's no way for the computer to act on them. It's like saying a grocery list isn't composed of atoms or energy.

[AgnosticBoy]

So I am just putting this out there as a thought-provoker:

If something exists, it is composed of atoms or is an energy or force: Electromagnetic, Gravitational, Strong Nuclear Force, Weak Nuclear Force and Neutron Degeneracy.

Is there anything that is an exception to this conjecture?

Consciousness. One can argue that it is produced from matter, but it in and of itself is not matter or energy to my knowledge.

Jgh, agreed. We certainly don't study consciousness as if it's physical which is why scientists rely on indirect means (by having the subject report their experience) to know what we're subjectively experiencing. Consciousness was once banned from scientific study for this very problem.

[AgnosticBoy]

If we're going to assign abstracts, it'd be helpful if you offered up an example that doesn't exist solely in the mind (which is run on a physical "computer", ie the brain).

If you're equating consciousness to being software, then I have to disagree to a degree or at least raise questions. We can say that the mind or consciousness manages data flow, inputs from the environment, from memory, etc. But that is not all that consciousness involves. Consciousness also involves a subjective element, like feelings, dreams, self-awareness, etc.

Everything today that software does can occur "in the dark" so to speak - without any feeling, thought, or awareness behind it. In my view, the advent of computers actually made the problem of consciousness even bigger because it made us realize how subjective consciousness is NOT needed to handle information. In fact, some would say it would be more reasonable that it occurred in the dark. Various human behavior already occur via unconscious processing. Subjective consciousness just seems extremely superfluous to a mechanistic (esp. CPU-based system)/deterministic worldview. But yet, the subjective is still there, with no discernible form or function.

[William]

[Replying to post 8 by AgnosticBoy]

Consciousness was once banned from scientific study for this very problem.

Perhaps the ban was lifted because it was a type of head in the sand position to adopt.

Certainly the argument 'consciousness is an emergent property of matter, therefore indirectly consciousness is 'made of matter' is a misdirection.

The answer to the OP question "Is there anything that is an exception to this conjecture?" has been answered.