Was Christ intelligent?

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marco
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Was Christ intelligent?

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Post by marco »

Some might suppose that Jesus was more intelligent than any other human. Some might say he was a very simple man with simple tastes.

There is no evidence, as I see it, that Jesus pondered science while someone like Lucretius, born a century before Jesus, was able to talk of atoms and the void. Jesus gave no hint that he pondered the beginnings of life; his statements are very simple and do show a study of Scripture and little else. When he does move to secular matters he seems to be on shaky ground - as with the mustard seed.

Would we expect Jesus to be highly intelligent?
Is there evidence to show he was among the intelligent men of history?

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Post #21

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Inigo Montoya wrote:
bluethread wrote:
So, of what value will this post be to people in the 25th century?
Depends. Are the instructions to eternal life contained in this post? Do you care how compelling the stories are about you in 4 more centuries? Does your post only care about this generation in 2018? If you don't see the relevance of being part and parcel of an omnipotent agency regarding the value in what you can share with an audience, I'm at a loss.
At the moment I am talking to you. Whatever is of eternal value in what I am saying should be able to be determined by future generations, by them making the effort to understand the historical, grammatical and cultural context in which i am writing. If the people in the future will not be willing to put out the effort to do that, they probably would not put out the effort act accordingly either.
I don't know why I keep bothering to engage in hypothetical conversations based on hypothetical premises stemming from the barest composite of someone that existed millennia ago. Mods, a ban would keep me from being tempted into such. It may be the only way.
Well, if you don't think it is reasonable for you to express your views in a way that directly addresses various possibilities, why do you expect a limited number of accounts of Yeshua expressing His views to do so?

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marco
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Re: Was Christ intelligent?

Post #22

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1213 wrote:
marco wrote: ...Is there evidence to show he was among the intelligent men of history?
I think his teachings are super intelligent. But unfortunately, it seems to be just matter of opinions, what is intelligent. We probably think differently on what is really intelligent.

We probably don't think differently on what it means to be intelligent. I think there are many good people whose lives shine but who are not intelligent. Just nice people. I feel Jesus was one such person. I cannot imagine him seeing his way through some complex mathematics, after being instructed of course, nor discoursing on how matter may have come about. There were people before his time who could do this.

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Re: Was Christ intelligent?

Post #23

Post by marco »

steveb1 wrote:
His quips, comebacks, and his way of reversing intellectual traps and springing them on foes hints at a very sharp, alert intelligence that was able to successfully deal with a variety of circumstances, some of them potentially lethal to Jesus.

Of course we can attribute more than may have been in this or that situation. It is hardly a brilliancy to see when people are being sarcastic or setting you up; today's average comedians are masters of the smart comeback.

Beyond conversational comedy and repartee I see nothing that suggests stirrings of true intelligence in Jesus, albeit he was a good man.

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Re: Was Christ intelligent?

Post #24

Post by marco »

Inigo Montoya wrote:

Certainly if Jesus had some connection with the creator of the cosmos, something beyond a passing nod, we should absolutely expect him to be quite brilliant on matters apart from Jewish scripture.
Yes, that is my point. I find nothing in the Christ reportage that suggests he had the exceptional intelligence we would expect, certainly from God's only begotten son. It has been suggested that he had a talent for turning the tables. He didn't seem to have a talent for writing things down. We know he scribbled something in the dust but that's about it. For real talent and table-turning wit we must look to Cicero, Christ's superior.
Inigo Montoya wrote:
It's like giving William Wallace credit for the inspiring pre-battle speeches in Braveheart because Mel Gibson wrote them for the character.
Wallace probably spoke in a much more inspiring way than did Mel (whom I once met in a bookshop in Santa Monica.) As a boy I thought Wallace was God - I'm not quite sure now.

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Re: Was Christ intelligent?

Post #25

Post by marco »

Elijah John wrote:
marco wrote: Would we expect Jesus to be highly intelligent?
Is there evidence to show he was among the intelligent men of history?
Regarding the first question, yes and steveb1 makes a good case that he was.
If we downgrade intelligence to an ability to talk in a smart way, we can answer affirmatively.

I agree that his failure to demonstrate an all-encompassing mind, one conversant with
with many disciplines, rather disqualifies him as God. Of course he may well have known of Pythagorean triples, but kept the knowledge to himself.

Instead of curing a few lepers it would have been more impressive had he instructed people in the way leprosy can be cured. His cures did not advance mankind one iota.

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Re: Was Christ intelligent?

Post #26

Post by shnarkle »

[Replying to post 24 by marco]
Instead of curing a few lepers it would have been more impressive had he instructed people in the way leprosy can be cured. His cures did not advance mankind one iota.
And yet the law which he is said to have kept and fulfilled does instruct in preventing the spread of disease. Being able to follow simple instructions shows definite signs of intelligence. Being able to see that these experiments work is yet another sign of intelligence. Instructing others and showing them that these experiments work is yet another sign of intelligence. Ignoring these signs is not what I would call a sign of intelligence, and those who are more inclined to display a lack of intelligence aren't necessarily the best judges of intelligence.

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Re: Was Christ intelligent?

Post #27

Post by marco »

steveb1 wrote:

Intelligence is not always scientific. There is no reason to think that Jesus, as a member of a pre-scientific society, would be disseminating scientific information.
I gave the example of Lucretius to show that people were interested in origins and atoms. It is all very well to say that before Abraham was, I am - but much more impressive to suggest what might have been before man. Christ may not have had Newton's intelligence or thirst for knowledge but the mark of an intelligent man is to be able to handle a multiplicity of disciplines. To instruct people in human decency is nice, but hardly qualifies as a sign of high intelligence.


Your quotation:

"Jesus' personality and teachings are unique and not historically conditioned because they do not stem from [an external] human source, but are rooted in his consciousness of the inner world through which comes his awareness of the holy God whom the prophets before him had known in the past. " [/quote]

is, for me, a exercise in verbosity. Of course any man's personality is unique; Christ's aphorisms, his parables and his statements are drawn from his time not from some celestial sphere. Cicero wrote on friendship and on age without having his roots in God's slippers. And I believe Cicero's thoughts possibly excel those reported as being Christ's. And Cicero had the advantage of demonstrating writing skills as well as oratory.
steveb1 wrote:
...the parables...make their points by drawing upon images from the storehouse of the human soul... Jesus' teaching[s] are not conceptualized statements, but images in which we may see our own selves reflected.
I'm afraid this is elevation of the ordinary. The fables of Aesop or Phaedrus give perfect insights into the human psyche. Most thinking people are able to offer examples of being good. Plato made an art of it. Christ is one of millions.

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Re: Was Christ intelligent?

Post #28

Post by marco »

shnarkle wrote:

And yet the law which he is said to have kept and fulfilled does instruct in preventing the spread of disease. Being able to follow simple instructions shows definite signs of intelligence.
May I disagree? The ability bto follow simple instructions indicates intelligence? I wasn't suggesting Christ was a moron.

As for obeying the law unquestioningly - this is not an ingredient of high intelligence. If the law tells us to kill witches, we must regard the law as an ass.

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Post #29

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bluethread wrote: All of those things that modern scientific types think He should have spoken about, would have been of little use to the people of the time, if they had even been interested. What He did speak to were the core values and social structures of the time. The accounts, if you consider them to be accurate, do show Him having a firm grasp on those things.

Exactly. He restricted his thoughts and words to a tiny fragment of human concerns, thus concealing any intelligence he might have had. We can guess he could write, but didn't; had ideas about the stars, but never expressed them; could have dismissed the gods of the dominant civilisation, but didn't; could have anticipated some of the schisms that struck Christianity, but didn't. Instead, the kingdom of heaven was like a mustard seed or was it a field? What an intelligent contribution!

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Re: Was Christ intelligent?

Post #30

Post by marco »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
I'm a Christian and believe (based on my interpretation of certain bible passages) that Christ had a prehuman existence, which included playing an active role in the creation of the universe with an intellect and memory that encompassed all that this would mean. And that as an adult he had access to all this information.
Well interpretations are notoriously dependent on lots of variables. Blessed is the man who finds the right interpretation! The Pope believes he has, with some justification.

It seems to the reasonable man in the street that a man on the outskirts of Roman civilisation may have had grand ideas, but that would not make him a few inches taller or a few millennia older. Best view Jesus as we read of him - an unfortunate man who was crucified for exaggerating his status. Not the sign of high intelligence, perhaps.

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