Revelation 2:8

[Wootah]

8 “To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:

These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.

Q: Who is the First and Last?
A: God.

If God is the first and last and also died and came to life again isn't that Jesus.

How does anyone get around this scriptural interpretation?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 49 by onewithhim]

No one is talking about alpha and omega except you.

I use biblegateway for bible references mostly.

Anyway how about the topic?

OK then, answer this: How does the scripture you quoted about "the First and the Last" show that Jesus is God?

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 51 by onewithhim]

The first and the last can only refer to God.

Isaiah 44:6 New International Version (NIV)
The Lord, Not Idols
6 “This is what the Lord says—
Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.

[shnarkle]

Look at an Interlinear Bible. You will observe that in that verse "the First and the Last" is not from the Greek "Alpha and Omega." It might mean that, but the words are not "Alpha and Omega." That clues us in to the fact that "the First and the Last" has another inference and does not show that Jesus is the "Alpha and Omega." If he were, those Greek letters would be there in that verse.

The Greek letter for omega is there, and the word "alpha" is referring to the greek letter. That's how you spell it. Here are just a few translations. They're all the same.

New International Version
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

New Living Translation
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

English Standard Version
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.�

Berean Study Bible
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

Berean Literal Bible
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

New American Standard Bible
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

King James Bible
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

"Alpha and Omega" refer only to God, Jehovah (the Father).

Not really. The clue to why this can't be is in the fact that God can't die, and the text plainly states "who was dead...etc" "in the beginning was the word" refers to Christ, and the word is eternal. People also think that "the Eternal" refers to God, but that isn't the case with Paul or John. John doesn't begin with "In the beginning was God" for the salient reason that God is the source or origin of existence. Therefore the Father cannot exist apart from the word, which is what he points out in "and the word was God". He didn't state that "God was the word". God isn't anything, and can't be anything apart from the word. It may sound trinitarian, but it isn't.

He is the Source of everything that exists. Jesus Christ is the means by which Jehovah has saved the world, and it is to him we owe the highest respect as the First to be working by his Father's side, and the Last one to be recognized as the life-giving mighty person that he is.

So you also see that Christ is the first and the last. Christ is the means by which everything exists.(1.Cor. 8:6) All of creation exists by Christ. The Father is the origin of creation, and yet the father doesn't create anything. The father can't be the creator, but must be the origin of creation which can only come about by means of the word/Christ.

The problem arises when people assume that "the Eternal" refers to God. It doesn't. The term "God" is synonymous with transcendence, and therefore has no attributes. There is no referent for transcendence. The only referent for God is Christ, and Christ simply can't be God. However, God exists nowhere apart from Christ. There is only the image of God so if you would look for God, you will only see God in the Icon of God which is Christ.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 51 by onewithhim]

The first and the last can only refer to God.

Isaiah 44:6 New International Version (NIV)
The Lord, Not Idols
6 “This is what the Lord says—
Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.

Apart from the word there is no God. Christ is the Icon or "Image of the invisible God". Apart from that image, there is no God. You can search throughout all of time and space, and never find God anywhere except in Christ.

The texts tell us that all power has been given to Christ; all power si what "almighty" means. Christ redeemed the world, and is king of king and lord of lords. Christ is Israel's king.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 51 by onewithhim]

The first and the last can only refer to God.

Isaiah 44:6 New International Version (NIV)
The Lord, Not Idols
6 “This is what the Lord says—
Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.

You may have forgotten that many times the same titles are given to Jehovah and to Jesus, and even to David or other kings and leaders. Jehovah is called the only Savior, yet Jesus is referred to as the Savior. Just a little thought being given to this will make clear that Jehovah is THE Most High and he is the Source of salvation. He planned how mankind would be saved, and he instructed His Son as to how he should go about being the means by which mankind is saved. Therefore, Jesus can ALSO be called our Savior, but does that mean that he is God? I would say "no."

Moses was called "God" to Pharaoh at Exodus 7:1 (NASB). Should we understand that Moses is God Almighty? No. We have to dig deeper into the meaning of things and not take things at face value in every instance, especially when something seems to contradict something else.

Also, King David was called "the anointed one of Jehovah," or, messiah. All of the kings of Israel, in fact, were "messiahs," because they were anointed by Jehovah. Does that mean that Jesus is not the only Messiah that takes away the sins of the world? "Messiah" can refer to different individuals, just as "First and the Last" can. Perhaps more research can be done on the Hebrew words for "first and last" as found at Isaiah 44:6. I wish I knew Hebrew but I don't, and the meaning there of those words as the writer meant them would be interesting.

One thing I have ascertained for myself, though, and that is that Jesus can be called the First and the Last and Savior, just as his Father is called the First and the Last and Savior, and that doesn't prove that they are both God Almighty. ONLY Jehovah is called "Alpha and Omega" and "El Shaddai."

[dio9]

8 “To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:

These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.

Q: Who is the First and Last?
A: God.

If God is the first and last and also died and came to life again isn't that Jesus.

How does anyone get around this scriptural interpretation?

I get around it by the very Zen of it. 1, being both first and last doesn't make sense. How can someone be the first and the last? Clearly there is a meaning other than a logical one. In western thought these are two positions that can't be held at the same time. unless there is only one runner the first place winner can't also be the last place runner. But ,
The Zen of this is other than practical. What's the Zen , Life and death. The human condition of birth and death the whole ball of wax with all the joy and suffering life can offer.

And 2. "who died and came to life again." again makes no rational sense. The Zen however does. Life and death happen and the impossible is possible. That's just the way it is. Life and death are one in the resurrection.
Rev. 2:8 is about Christ alright but not to say he is God , to say so is to misunderstand the meaning of Christ. Christ is God in humanity contemplating and relating to himself.

Stunning mind numbing statements like first and last; died and come back to life,
leave the believer in a state of awe and confusion one is unable to explain.

[onewithhim]

8 “To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:

These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.

Q: Who is the First and Last?
A: God.

If God is the first and last and also died and came to life again isn't that Jesus.

How does anyone get around this scriptural interpretation?

I get around it by the very Zen of it. 1, being both first and last doesn't make sense. How can someone be the first and the last?

I addressed that in my post #49.

[onewithhim]

Look at an Interlinear Bible. You will observe that in that verse "the First and the Last" is not from the Greek "Alpha and Omega." It might mean that, but the words are not "Alpha and Omega." That clues us in to the fact that "the First and the Last" has another inference and does not show that Jesus is the "Alpha and Omega." If he were, those Greek letters would be there in that verse.

The Greek letter for omega is there, and the word "alpha" is referring to the greek letter. That's how you spell it. Here are just a few translations. They're all the same.

New International Version
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

New Living Translation
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

English Standard Version
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.�

Berean Study Bible
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

Berean Literal Bible
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

New American Standard Bible
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

King James Bible
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

"Alpha and Omega" refer only to God, Jehovah (the Father).

Not really. The clue to why this can't be is in the fact that God can't die, and the text plainly states "who was dead...etc"

In an Interlinear Bible, at Revelation 2:8 the Greek letters for Alpha and Omega are NOT there. That is my point. Because they are not there, the meaning of that verse is different than Revelation 1:8 where the Greek letters appear for Alpha and Omega.

However, your point that Rev.2:8 doesn't refer to God because God cannot die is right on the money.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 58 by onewithhim]

In an Interlinear Bible, at Revelation 2:8 the Greek letters for Alpha and Omega are NOT there. That is my point.

What is your point? They terms are synonymous. I don't see you making a point. I see you making a claim without a point.

Because they are not there, the meaning of that verse is different than Revelation 1:8 where the Greek letters appear for Alpha and Omega.

The meaning is the same. The only difference is that John doesn't need to repeat himself exhaustively. It is sufficient enough to refer to the one without repeating the other. The "first and the last" are synonymous with "the alpha and the omega". He could have added "the beginning and the end" as well, but the reader gets the point by this time, and doesn't need to see it all repeated over and over. Simply using either one of these titles is more than enough. That's the point.

Again, this is right in line with John's introduction in that 'in the beginning was the word" is saying the same thing. The beginning exists because the word exists; the word is existence. Nothing exists apart from the word, including God.

Paul points out that God is "of whom all things exist". This denotes God as the origin of what exists, and of existence. The problem most don't seem to understand is that the origin of anything can't be the thing itself. If this was the case, then God would be what exists; God would be what is created. I'm sure you would agree that this can't be the case, yet the same holds true for the word. God can't be the word; yet the word brings God into existence. It is only in, with and through the word that God exists. The word is being; the ground of being; eternal existence. The word exists "in the beginning". Therefore the word is without beginning or end. The word is eternal, and yet Paul is quite clear in pointing out that although Christ is the means by which all things are created, Christ isn't God. This doesn't negate the fact that Christ is synonymous with the word and therefore eternal.

[shnarkle]

being both first and last doesn't make sense. How can someone be the first and the last?

When that one is being itself. The first and the last can't exist without existence; the ground of being. The first exists because of existence and likewise the last exists because of existence.

Clearly there is a meaning other than a logical one. In western thought these are two positions that can't be held at the same time. unless there is only one runner the first place winner can't also be the last place runner.

Sure he can. Think about it. How does a runner running around a track manage to be the first to cross the finish line as well as the last? It's quite simple really, and there is nothing illogical about it at all. With your Zen mind, you should have no problem figuring this one out immediately.

Christ is God in humanity contemplating and relating to himself.

Except for the fact that Christ's instructions clearly suggest that one "deny yourself". There is no self to relate to.

Stunning mind numbing statements like first and last; died and come back to life,
leave the believer in a state of awe and confusion one is unable to explain.

Eternal life isn't possible withing the confines of a mental construct of self, therefore the self must "die". The self isn't alive in the first place; it's simply an abstract construction of the mind that people identify with. Once this illusion is seen for what it is, the self no longer influences or mediates reality. All that is left is Christ who Paul points out is the mediator. The self is the only one who can be confused, stunned, deceived, etc.