Parables of the Kingdom

[Checkpoint]

Jesus was a teacher like few others.

His teaching was both practical and spiritual, with one basic message, the good news of the Kingdom of God/Heaven.

He taught in many ways, one of which was by the use of parables.

Matthew 13 brings a number of his Kingdom parables together, about which Jesus asked and observed:

Matthew 13:

51 “Have you understood all these things?� Jesus asked.

“Yes,� they replied.

52 He said to them, “Therefore every scribe who has become a disciple in the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old.�

This thread is for us to present our understanding of these and any other Kingdom parables.

Are our views of the Kingdom confirmed or challenged by what is in Matthew 13?

Does this teaching add to, or modify or take away from, what has been your understanding of the Kingdom?

[ttruscott]

But why would one necessarily need to look at the kingdom as being postponed?

For me, the answer is in Matt 13:28 “ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29 “ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest.

9 “ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds [bringing the final judgment upon the reprobate tares], you may uproot the wheat with them [the sinful elect under my promise of salvation will be damned also]. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest [so that they may have their eyes opened to their own sin and repent and have their eyes opened to the eternal nature of the sinfulness of the reprobate non-elect goats (by their personal experience of evil and consequences of evil) so they finally move into accord with YHWH's estimation that there is an absolute need for them to be eternally banished.

The kingdom is postponed because of the sinfulness of some of HIS elect which forced the judgement to be postponed as I filled out in much more detail in The JUDGEMENT POSTPONED: Debating Christianity and Religion Forum Index: Bible Study at viewtopic.php?t=34033&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Topic drift did take the discussion into why is this not been revealed before if it is so important...sigh.

[JehovahsWitness]

Replying to post 17 by Checkpoint

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus in illustrative (parable) form was actually conveying information. A parable or illustrative is a way in word pictures of communicating information without explicitly saying the words. For example Jesus spoke about Christians letting their "Light" shine. He never said the words "good conduct" or "positive influcence" but we believe that is what he meant by "light". In a similar way, when Jesus gave illustrations or parables (illustrations in story form) we believe he was often communicating deeper thoughts, some of which were not initially apparent to listeners; so much so that his disciples often had to ask him for the "meaning" of the story (ie they wanted to understand what he was trying to convey that wasn't explicitly mentioned).

This was the case in the parable of the "wheat and the weeds". There are probably as many interpretations of Jesus' parables as there are Christians , I'm just presenting the Jehovah's Witnesss take on them.


JW

[shnarkle]

... I thought the term tribulation is only referring to the tribulation of antichrist. I could be wrong, but can't find where tribuilation may be referring to God's judgement.

MATTHEW 24: 21
For at that time there will be great tribulation, the kind that hasn't taken place from the beginning of the world until now and never will again! - Holman Christian Standard Bible

WHAT IS THE "GREAT TRIBULATION"?

Jehovah's Witnesses believe the "great tribulation" to be a future world situation, which will start with the destruction of false religion and climax with the destruction of the wicked and the entire world system of things at Armageddon when every human will be judged either worthy of everlasting destruction or allowed to survive to live on under kingdom rule (we believe God's kingdom to be a heavenly government that will rule over the entire planet earth).

We believe that survivors of these events will be the "meek that shall inherit the earth" ie those that survive this destruction will continue life on earth but under much better living conditions.


JW

Interesting. Thanks for that reference. Given that Satan is the great deciever and places the antichrist in a position to decieve the whole world into believing he's Christ, how does one know they haven't been decieved?. Doesn't the antichrist come first? It would seem a bit anticlimactic for Christ to return THEN have the antichrist show up afterwards, wouldn't it?

With all these references to the tribulation of antichrist, wouldn't it be better to sit back and make sure one hasn't been decieved?

[JehovahsWitness]

He said nothing, and intended nothing, for example, about any "Christian ORGANIZATION" ...

WHAT IS THE GATHERING OF THE SON OF THE KINGDOM ?

In Jesus' illustration of "wheat and weeds" Jesus spoke of a period when the wheat, which was initially allowed to grow amongst weeds sown by the Devil are "gathered into Jesus "storehouses". Mat 13:30 reads: "First collect the weeds and [...] then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’�

Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe Jesus is refering to literal agricultural process but explaining in parable form something that will happen at some point in time under his (Jesus') direction. Jesus himself explained that the seeds (which grow into individual "wheat" stalks) refer to "the sons of the Kingdom", so although he didn't say the word "people" or "humans" we conclude he was indeed speaking about humans, namely spirit anointed Christians destined to be part of his (Jesus') kingdom government.

THINGS CHANGE FOR THE SONS OF THE KINGDOM

These individuals (humans) had previously been "growing" amongs the "sons of the wicked one" existing as individuals within the context of christendom (nominal christian religions) but according to Jesus words there would be a change in situation. during a period which he calls "the conclusion of the system of things" (NWT) there would be a gathering of these individuals.



Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that all spirit anointed "sons of the kingdom" would be "gathered" into one location or country but that they would be gathered or collected into a single identifiable "worldwide association of brothers" following the first century model of "pure religion" as spoken of by James. Thus they would go from sincere Christians scattered amongst all religions to Christians in one group as per the dictionary definition of what it means to "gather" someone/thing.


WHAT IS CHRISTS STOREHOUSE?

A storehouse is where a farmer keeps his crop secure and dry. Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe that "the sons of the kingdom" (spirit anointed Christians destined to rule with Jesus in his kingdom") will be kept in a literal storage area, but that Jesus would collect these individual humans together to a group that would come under his protection and spiritual safekeeping. Jesus later spoke of "sheep" in a "sheep pen" in a similar way. First century Christians did not literally all live together but they were one identifiable group united in religious docrtine that recognised the authority of individuals chosen by Christ to teach, direct, make decisions on an organizational level and take care of the spiritual well being of the group. We call such groups today, religions.

CONCLUSION Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the "harvest season" started in 1914 and that since then sincere individuals are being "gathered" into the "storehouse" of a reestablished worldwide identifiable christian organization as per the model of first century Christians found in the bible.

JW


What does Jesus' parable of "the wheat and the weeds" refer to?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 501#919501

Should all Christians after the first century be identified as "weeds"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 503#919503

What does the gathering and burning of the weeds refer to?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 504#919504

[JehovahsWitness]

Doesn't the antichrist come first? It would seem a bit anticlimactic for Christ to return THEN have the antichrist show up afterwards, wouldn't it?

What do you think "the antichrist" is? And what do you believe will happen when Christ "returns"?

[ttruscott]

With all these references to the tribulation of antichrist, wouldn't it be better to sit back and make sure one hasn't been decieved?

Usually not thought possible for a nature that tends toward the dark side... Faith in GOD as you conceive HIM and trust in the future you believe HE has for you is still the best we can do.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 24 by JehovahsWitness]

It's interesting to me that you present your position in terms of individuals, and then talk of them being gathered together into a unified group. The thing I don't see making much sense is for them to be an identifiable group because Jesus points out that the kingdom isn't subject to observation. This seems to me to match the parable in that those who are gathered into the barn are no longer seen by those who are to be burned.

You also say this which I don't quite understand:

First century Christians did not literally all live together

Here's why I don't understand:

All the believers were together and had everything in common. Acts 2:44

[shnarkle]

With all these references to the tribulation of antichrist, wouldn't it be better to sit back and make sure one hasn't been decieved?

Usually not thought possible for a nature that tends toward the dark side... Faith in GOD as you conceive HIM and trust in the future you believe HE has for you is still the best we can do.

I thought Christ came to allow us to do better, didn't he? Adam could do what you're talking about. In fact Adam could do that because of his fall while Christ allows us to rest in the present moment without any need to refer to the future.

Faith in one's conception is nothing more than another type of atheism. Faith in Christ isn't faith in a concept. Concepts are useful, but they have no more power than the laws that point to Christ. Once one has found Christ the concepts are no longer necessary. One can then discard the concepts for the reality and reality waits for no one. So one needn't wait on the future as it's already here now.

[shnarkle]

Doesn't the antichrist come first? It would seem a bit anticlimactic for Christ to return THEN have the antichrist show up afterwards, wouldn't it?

What do you think "the antichrist" is? And what do you believe will happen when Christ "returns"?

Antichrist means 'instead of Christ" and the texts indicate that " so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (2 Thess.2:4). This seems to me to be one of the most obvious passages in scripture. It it so simplly presented, yet most never see past some literal idea of a rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem. When one sees how Christ refers to the temple being his body, as well as his instruction to "deny yourself", this passage from Paul's letter indicates to me that it is nothing more or less than our own egos showing ourselves that we're our own God.

Christ is the temple of God, "in him the fullness of the godhead dwells in bodily form", and we are all created in God's image which is Christ. He is "the image of the invisible God", and when the self which Christ has instructed be denied is instead given free reign to do as it pleases, then it will ignore the image of God and make itself God.

For Christ to return requires nothing more than the awareness of a self that needs to be denied. Once the self is denied, Christ returns or is made manifest in, with, and through the new creature in Christ.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 24 by JehovahsWitness]

You also say this which I don't quite understand:

First century Christians did not literally all live together

Here's why I don't understand:

All the believers were together and had everything in common. Acts 2:44

Could you possibly find a way to express in words (in complete sentences) what, if anything you find contradictory in the two sentences?