How can Jesus have been betrayed if he knew ?

[dio9]

Tradition clearly states Jesus was betrayed.
How can Jesus have been betrayed if he knew Judas was going to betray him? Betrayal is a surprise unexpected . Betrayal means taken by surprise. Have you ever been betrayed?

I believe Jesus was betrayed but as a biblical buff question the Gospel account where Jesus dismisses Judas to go do what he has to do.

John 13:26
Jesus replied, “He’s the one I give the piece of bread to after I have dipped it.� When He had dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas, Simon Iscariot’s son.

How can he be betrayed if he knows he is going to be betrayed?

As I said I believe he was betrayed but am afraid the account in John's Gospel is drama.

Show me I am thinking wrong.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by dio9]

So if you know your wife's cheating on you, she's not cheating on you?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1 by dio9]

So if you know your wife's cheating on you, she's not cheating on you?

Is it cheating, if we take the John analogy?

Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.

So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.� 28 But no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him. 29 Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the festival, or to give something to the poor. 30 As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.
Seems to me that if we want to liken this to "cheating", then there is no actual cheating going on. The husband wants his wife to sleep with other men, identifies her swinging ways to her friends and family, and even tells her to do it. In fact, there is some goal the husband has in mind, that somehow requires the wife to sleep with other men.
So no...if we take John as gospel (pun intended), then it cannot be described in any way as cheating.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 1 by dio9]

So if you know your wife's cheating on you, she's not cheating on you?

Is it cheating, if we take the John analogy?

Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.

So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.� 28 But no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him. 29 Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the festival, or to give something to the poor. 30 As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.
Seems to me that if we want to liken this to "cheating", then there is no actual cheating going on. The husband wants his wife to sleep with other men, identifies her swinging ways to her friends and family, and even tells her to do it. In fact, there is some goal the husband has in mind, that somehow requires the wife to sleep with other men.
So no...if we take John as gospel (pun intended), then it cannot be described in any way as cheating.

Judas thought his actions were secretive and his actions were not commanded to him by Jesus. Nor is there any indication that Jesus wanted Judas to betray him. Yet, once Judas had put Satan's plan in motion, Jesus didn't stop that plan. Jesus wants his Father's will to take place. This act of evil would be turned into a blessing for all of mankind. This is nothing new for God. He has turned plots of evil into ways of salvation before. Jehovah has allowed an evil plot to continue right up to the last second only for that plot to seal the plotters judgement. (Deuteronomy 23:5, the book of Esther.)

Proverbs 26:27 says, "The one who digs a pit will fall into it, And whoever rolls away a stone—it will come back on him."

“Do not be misled: God is not one to be mocked. ... For whatever a man is sowing, this he will also reap.� (Gal. 6:7)

So is it still cheating? It most certainly is still cheating and in Judas' case, it's still betrayal. Even if Jesus had not said 'do it quickly' Judas still would have did what he set out to do and the betrayal was already in motion. What Jesus knew and said doesn't change what the betrayers motive. Just like if a person knew they were being cheated would change the cheaters motive for cheating. Knowing and allowing doesn't change anything on the part of the wrong doer as they know what they are doing is wrong and they do it anyway.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 4 by 2timothy316]

and his actions were not commanded to him by Jesus.

"“What you are about to do, do quickly.� "

Nor is there any indication that Jesus wanted Judas to betray him.

Jesus, according to the Bible, does nothing to stop Judas from "betraying" him (or cheating on him, to use ted's analogy) and in fact, according to Christianity, Judas had to "betray" Jesus to the authorities, otherwise Jesus couldn't/wouldn't be killed and resurrected, to fulfill the divine cosmic plan.

Yet, once Judas had put Satan's plan in motion, Jesus didn't stop that plan. Jesus wants his Father's will to take place.

To again use ted's analogy, this is the husband listening to his father telling him to allow the wife to sleep with other men. The wife's father-in-law has some plan in mind that requires the wife to engage in extra-marital intercourse.

This act of evil would be turned into a blessing for all of mankind.

So, it's not cheating. Also...did you just call something God planned/willed...evil? Seems to me that you did.

So is it still cheating? It most certainly is still cheating and in Judas' case, it's still betrayal. Even if Jesus had not said 'do it quickly' Judas still would have did what he set out to do.

How? Walk me through the analogy please.
You have a spouse. You and your father have a goal, some end to achieve, that you believe benefits all people, and that, in order for this to happen, your spouse has to engage in extra-marital sexual intercourse. You are fully aware that she is doing this, and that she plans to do it. You reveal to friends and family what your spouse is doing, what she plans to do. You tell her to do it, in front of family and friends.
I am not seeing where the betrayal/cheating is. In fact...what if your spouse did NOT engage in the extra-marital affair? What if she (or Judas) did not quote unquote betray her husband/Jesus? What if Judas had somehow, for whatever reason, not gone along with Satan? What if Judas had said "No, Master! I won't betray you! In fact, here, take and keep the coins! Fellow disciples, sit here with me and make sure I don't leave the house, don't give me an opportunity to identify our master to the authorities!"

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 5 by rikuoamero]

The key is intent on the part of the wrong doer. What a person says to that person doesn't change why they are pursuing an evil action. Judas' intent and actions were his choice. Jesus knowing about his choice and even telling him to 'hurry up' doesn't change Judas' intentions or the wickedness that was in his heart. There is no defense for Judas. Jesus didn't put his own betrayal in motion and allowing it doesn't make Jesus or God responsible for it either.

When we have been wronged their is only one thing we can control, our response to it.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 5 by rikuoamero]

The key is intent on the part of the wrong doer. What a person says to that person doesn't change why they are pursuing an evil action. Judas' intent and actions were his choice. Jesus knowing about his choice and even telling him to 'hurry up' doesn't change Judas' intentions or the wickedness that was in his heart. There is no defense for Judas. Jesus didn't put his own betrayal in motion and allowing it doesn't make Jesus or God responsible for it either.

When a person has been wronged their is only one thing we can control, our response to it.

To again use ted's analogy...in fact let's take it a little further.
Let's say the father-in-law says to his son, the husband, to allow the wife to sleep around. The father in law says something like "Reveal her unfaithfulness, divorce her, get the money she'll owe you for having broken the pre-nup, and then donate it to charity".
Would a court (judge and or jury) who hears that the husband knew about the infidelity, and in fact planned on it, allowed it to happen, and commanded his wife to do it, acting in concert with his father...say that the wife betrayed her husband and that the husband is owed restitution?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 5 by rikuoamero]

The key is intent on the part of the wrong doer. What a person says to that person doesn't change why they are pursuing an evil action. Judas' intent and actions were his choice. Jesus knowing about his choice and even telling him to 'hurry up' doesn't change Judas' intentions or the wickedness that was in his heart. There is no defense for Judas. Jesus didn't put his own betrayal in motion and allowing it doesn't make Jesus or God responsible for it either.

When a person has been wronged their is only one thing we can control, our response to it.

To again use ted's analogy...in fact let's take it a little further.
Let's say the father-in-law says to his son, the husband, to allow the wife to sleep around. The father in law says something like "Reveal her unfaithfulness, divorce her, get the money she'll owe you for having broken the pre-nup, and then donate it to charity".
Would a court (judge and or jury) who hears that the husband knew about the infidelity, and in fact planned on it, allowed it to happen, and commanded his wife to do it, acting in concert with his father...say that the wife betrayed her husband and that the husband is owed restitution?

There was no commandment from Jesus to Judas to betray Jesus though. If you read the account, Judas had already been paid to give Jesus up. The plan was already made, not by Jesus either and Jesus simply said 'move faster'.

Knowing what someone is going to do doesn't change what is in a person's heart and their motive for doing it. Judas' greed still made him a betrayer and Jesus knowing what was being planned doesn't change Judas' wicked act. Neither Jesus or Jehovah plan these plots the only thing they control is their response to them. Jehovah God uses evil plots against the plotter. That is His response. The account of Esther is another occasion where God knew what was going to happen. Even then that doesn't make God an accessory to the plot or it's designer.

[shnarkle]

Tradition clearly states Jesus was betrayed.
How can Jesus have been betrayed if he knew Judas was going to betray him? Betrayal is a surprise unexpected . Betrayal means taken by surprise. Have you ever been betrayed?

I believe Jesus was betrayed but as a biblical buff question the Gospel account where Jesus dismisses Judas to go do what he has to do.

John 13:26
Jesus replied, “He’s the one I give the piece of bread to after I have dipped it.� When He had dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas, Simon Iscariot’s son.

How can he be betrayed if he knows he is going to be betrayed?

As I said I believe he was betrayed but am afraid the account in John's Gospel is drama.

Show me I am thinking wrong.

A number of scholars have pointed out something similar to what you're proposing. They point out that it is Jesus who instructs his apostles to betray him, and the apostels are taken aback and don't want to go along with this plan; all except one. Judas sees this as an excellent way to bring about the kingdom through this grand dramatic deception hoisted upon the powers that be. The Jewish myth of Samson would have undoubtedly been in his mind as well. This dramatic betrayal would lead to the destruction of the government and allow God's kingdom to come into being.

While these texts are written in Greek, they are distinctly Jewish documents, and as such they rely on word play, and it is no coincidence that Judas Iscariot sounds almost exactly like Juda sicariot which means Jewish Assassin.

Just because someone knows that someone else is perpetrating a deception or betrayal doesn't negate the fact that the person is at the very least attempting to carry out this betrayal. The message seems clear that those who practice deceit are themselves deceived. How much clearer can it get when the person who is being betrayed is telling the betrayer to get on with it?

The texts stated that Satan entered into him at that point. So regardless of whether one chooses to look at this as simply a personification of deception, or as some evil entity, the point is that even though the gig is up, and the one to be betrayed knows what is going on, in deceiving they are self deceived. They still believe that they have something left to hide.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 8 by 2timothy316]

Knowing what someone is going to do doesn't change what is in a person's heart and their motive for doing it. Judas' greed still made him a betrayer and Jesus knowing what was being planned doesn't change Judas' wicked act. Neither Jesus or Jehovah plan these plots the only thing they control is their response to them. Jehovah God uses evil plots against the plotter. That is His response. The account of Esther is another occasion where God knew what was going to happen. Even then that doesn't make God an accessory to the plot or it's designer.

Yes, it seems to be a quite pervasive theme throughout the biblical texts, i.e. foreknowledge doesn't negate or deny one their free will. I think Paul goes so far as to suggest that in order for something to be foreknown it must be predestined, but this doesn't necessarily mean that what is predestinced is predestined by God or necessarily intended by God. It's just necessary that it be predestine in order to be foreknown. It's just a logical conclusion that must be drawn for what is forknown to remain foreknown.