Who is responsible?

[Peds nurse]

Imagine that a car manufacturing company, made the standard cars that we all drive today. It is equipped with a manual that tells the driver how to use the car efficiently. Although the car is equipped to engage in speeds of 120 miles per hour, the manual cautions the driver of the hazards of driving at such speeds.

Question for debate. Should the manufacturing company be held liable for people getting into accidents and sometimes causing death by driving at speeds not recommended?

I think we can translate this to the spiritual realm. Why should God be held accountable for people who make faulty decisions with their life, sometimes hurting or killing others?

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 1 by Peds nurse]

The one and only purpose for Creation, is to provide us with the free will to make moral choices. The choices are ours, not God's, because God shared that free will with us, to exercise in this universe, in this life. This is a test.

... God has a free will to choose between good and evil? For some reason that doesn't sound right to me.

Why? Every holy person is holy by their free will and a free will is free for every option applicable. This only means that though holy persons can indeed choose evil, they never will because they have seen / experienced for themselves the consequences of choosing evil and out of a commitment to loving righteousness will never bring such suffering into their world again.

[ttruscott]

Thus proving that your god is also not omniscient. This doesn't sound like much of a god to begin with.

It is better to tread softly with this topic since the Church has accepted the pagan Greek wisdom definition of omniscience as knowing all there is to know about everything from eternity past to eternity future. If that sounds much more godly I suggest you have fallen under the spell of false, pagan, religion.

I know this definition is a blasphemy because it says that GOD knew before HE created them those who would end in hell BUT CREATED THEM ANYWAY!!! This is not the action of a GOD who loves, is righteous and just! It is written that HE does everything for HIS pleasure and also that HE takes no pleasure in the death / damnation of anyone and neither does HE want anyone to be lost YET HE CREATED THEM KNOWING THEY WOULD END IN HELL!???

How orthodoxy lives with their cognitive dissonance here is beyond me. It is also written that HE knows all about what HE has created which implies that if He did not create something, HE does not know it...which also implies that if HE does not create the results of our true free will decisions, then HE does not know those results until we choose them!

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 100 by ttruscott]

As for stopping the suffering, why would HE do that ? when it is the only way to get through to the sinful elect that they indeed are guilty and must repent and become holy.

Are you saying that repentance is a means of becoming holy, or does holiness require repentance?

To be holy is to be totally in accord with GOD. Since a sinner can never be totally in accord with GOD, repentance must come first before holiness.

HIS love for them does not get them to repent. The abstract knowledge that HE claims they are sinners does not get them to repent. ONLY having their eyes opened to their evil by them seeing the suffering they cause their loved ones gets people to repent.

I can't help but see some validity in what you're saying here. When we see something that we've done causes harm to others, it can be unbearable if there is no remedy, and that remedy seems to be the sacrifice of the sinner; the carnal minded can't do that while those who become tormented by their sin, will do whatever is necessary to make restitution.

Indeed...

The abstract knowledge that HE claims the tares are eternally sinful does not get the sinful elect to repudiate their friendly relations with them.

I don't know about this because it sounds like something different than what Paul says in Romans 9

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

No one has proof this refers to our creation and not to predetermining our lives after we chose to be sinners as I contend.

Without allowing people to feel the suffering of evil, it would last forever.

Here again, I'm not entirely sure this makes complete sense. I see what you're saying with regards to the necessity for pain, and perhaps even suffering, but there are those who no amount of suffering or pain will have any effect, which is what you've already pointed out are the tares. I guess I just don't see any point in letting them engage in suffering forever. The perpetually evil need to be put out of their misery even if they are completely unaware of how miserable they really are. It is just and merciful for God to put the miserable out of their misery.

I used to agree but now I tend to put more faith in what is written and verses like: Matt 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.� where the eternities seem to be equal.

Since I have resolved the cognitive dissonance between HIS loving kindness and hell by the appeal to a free will decision whereby those condemned chose to put themselves beyond HIS mercy and grace forever so they are essentially eternally sinful unable to ever fulfill HIS purpose of sharing a marriage with them therefore fit only to be banished so as to be unable to corrupt HIS heavenly society, Galatians 5:9.

No one is condemned who can be saved, ie, brought to holiness.
Every person who is condemned cannot be saved, ie, cannot be brought to holiness.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 1 by Peds nurse]

The one and only purpose for Creation, is to provide us with the free will to make moral choices. The choices are ours, not God's, because God shared that free will with us, to exercise in this universe, in this life. This is a test.

... God has a free will to choose between good and evil? For some reason that doesn't sound right to me.

Why? Every holy person is holy by their free will and a free will is free for every option applicable. This only means that though holy persons can indeed choose evil, they never will because they have seen / experienced for themselves the consequences of choosing evil and out of a commitment to loving righteousness will never bring such suffering into their world again.

I admit I don't really have much of an argument to support my position. I look at it like someone might look at having the free will to press their hand to a hot stove. They may have the choice, but it isn't like they're going to have to think about it. Some people contemplate suicide on a regular basis while others never contemplate it. It simply never enters into their mind. How often to most people think about autonomous functions of the body? Most never do, and I think it's like that with God. Because of this, there really isn't a choice at all. I think this is what Paul is talking about when he says, "not by will or effort". He isn't suggesting that we don't have free will, he's just pointing out that God's will cannot be thwarted. God simply provides us with the easy way, and the hard way.

I think your theology would say that we're here because we chose the hard way, and within that hard way, there is a way back, or the way to destruction. Those who choose the way to destruction really can't help themselves. They just see that as a no-brainer, and those who choose the way back do so as well when they've gotten to a point where they can't stand to see the pain and suffering they inflict on others or the pain and suffering inflicted by the lost.

[shnarkle]

To be holy is to be totally in accord with GOD. Since a sinner can never be totally in accord with GOD, repentance must come first before holiness.

I'm not sure I follow. If as you say, a sinner can never be totally in accord with God, I don't see how a sinner who repents can be in accord with God, and therefore repentance would have to come from God. Isn't this what the texts mean when they talk about the gift of repentance, or giving them repentance? The reason I bring this up is because I don't see how the sinner, the carnal minded old nature can accept that gift. The old man doesn't even see what they're doing as sin. If they truly saw what they were doing as sinful they would become overcome with revulsion. That is the response that the new creature has towards sin, no? That's why it seems to me that holiness comes prior to repentance because the new creature wants to put away the old nature; sacrifice it as Paul says.

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

No one has proof this refers to our creation and not to predetermining our lives after we chose to be sinners as I contend.

I'm not sure I see what effective difference this makes. What do think Paul is saying there that he isn't saying otherwise?

The perpetually evil need to be put out of their misery even if they are completely unaware of how miserable they really are. It is just and merciful for God to put the miserable out of their misery.

I used to agree but now I tend to put more faith in what is written and verses like: Matt 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.� where the eternities seem to be equal.

If one looks at eternal as synonymous with permanence, then there is no necessity for perpetual punishment. It also doesn't make sense if they don't see it as punishment in the first place. I gave the example of those who enjoy being tortured becoming front line combatants against a foe who would no doubt torture them for free saving them from the indignity of having to pay for it while they were a civilian.

On the other hand, I can also see something to it if all existence is eternal, but then what the saved, redeemed etc. look at as punishment really isn't punishment at all. It's what the damned really want. This may have something to do with my comment to someone else on this subject when I considered the idea that this world we live in is really hell. Think about all the people who would rather live here forever. I can't speak for anyone else, but there's something about this world that has a tendency to wear on me after a while. I know that somewhere down the line I'm going to get tired of this place and long for it all to come to an end. I think those who want to live forever here in what looks to me like the heart of the beast, might just get their wish. After all, this world does seem to be hiding God's presence from us, doesn't it? I think that's what all these ancient texts are pointing out . They point out that there was a time when God's presence was an existential fact, but then as people just continued to descend into deeper and deeper states of depravity, there was no point in God's presence remaining. The temple was destroyed and rebuilt, yet it was all for nothing because unless God frees them from their bondage, they have no chance of living in God's presence.

No one is condemned who can be saved, ie, brought to holiness.
Every person who is condemned cannot be saved, ie, cannot be brought to holiness.

If I look at this as a case of wolves cannot become sheep or tares cannot become wheat, it makes sense, but it doesn't make sense if one looks at it from the standpoint of God's ability. From that standpoint it seems more likely that God won't save them. Perhaps it's as C.S. Lewis says when he points out that the gates of hell are locked from the inside.

[dianaiad]

Imagine that a car manufacturing company, made the standard cars that we all drive today. It is equipped with a manual that tells the driver how to use the car efficiently. Although the car is equipped to engage in speeds of 120 miles per hour, the manual cautions the driver of the hazards of driving at such speeds.

Question for debate. Should the manufacturing company be held liable for people getting into accidents and sometimes causing death by driving at speeds not recommended?

I think we can translate this to the spiritual realm. Why should God be held accountable for people who make faulty decisions with their life, sometimes hurting or killing others?

I think you may be begging the question, at least for some of us. That is, if you view humans as a manufactured product, you have a point here. Many people, and many Christians, believe that humans are indeed 'creations,' or manufactured products.

Some of us, however, don't view people as manufactured (created) any more than you or I view our kids as our manufactured creations whose decisions we dictate.

For those of us who view ourselves as God's CHILDREN, not His puppets or toys...or products of some divine assembly line...well, your premise is flawed, and the question being begged is; are we His children, or His 'creations?"

If we are His kids, your question needs to be altered a great deal, I think.

[onewithhim]

Imagine that a car manufacturing company, made the standard cars that we all drive today. It is equipped with a manual that tells the driver how to use the car efficiently. Although the car is equipped to engage in speeds of 120 miles per hour, the manual cautions the driver of the hazards of driving at such speeds.

Question for debate. Should the manufacturing company be held liable for people getting into accidents and sometimes causing death by driving at speeds not recommended?

I think we can translate this to the spiritual realm. Why should God be held accountable for people who make faulty decisions with their life, sometimes hurting or killing others?

He should NOT be held accountable for the bad choices of human beings. He has deemed us worthy enough to be given the ability to think out our decisions and make our own choices, according to what we think, what we hold dear, what we consider important. Jehovah has love and respect for humans. He has given us all the information we need to make good decisions. If we ignore those instructions it's like throwing away the manual and choosing to put sand in our gas tanks. Should the car manufacturer be held accountable because we willfully went against instructions and put something in the gas tank that would mess up the car?

[DPMartin]

Imagine that a car manufacturing company, made the standard cars that we all drive today. It is equipped with a manual that tells the driver how to use the car efficiently. Although the car is equipped to engage in speeds of 120 miles per hour, the manual cautions the driver of the hazards of driving at such speeds.

Question for debate. Should the manufacturing company be held liable for people getting into accidents and sometimes causing death by driving at speeds not recommended?

I think we can translate this to the spiritual realm. Why should God be held accountable for people who make faulty decisions with their life, sometimes hurting or killing others?

King David loved the Lord the Lord said of David that he was a man after His own heart. and King David hurt and killed his tens of thousands of others. what's your point?

[shnarkle]

Some of us, however, don't view people as manufactured (created) any more than you or I view our kids as our manufactured creations whose decisions we dictate.

This argument is hung up on terminology. To point out that one's children are created is to point out that they are part of the objective observable world. The point is that one's children do need instruction. While some people would rather abdicate their responsibilities in instructing their children, this is in no way the fault of the children; the parents are liable. You've simply ignored the question by supposing that letting children do whatever they want is acceptable.

For those of us who view ourselves as God's CHILDREN, not His puppets or toys...or products of some divine assembly line...well, your premise is flawed, and the question being begged is; are we His children, or His 'creations?"

There is no flaw to Peds premise. Ignoring the post as well as critiquing it without offering any reasons other than a baseless assertion is hardly even addressing the OP

If we are His kids, your question needs to be altered a great deal, I think.

There's nothing wrong with the analogy presented at all, unless of course one has no problem letting their children do whatever they please. Sadly, this is becoming more prevalent as parents abdicate any responsibility for their children's behavior. Children simply become wards of the state, much like impounded automobiles that were illegally parked, used in the commission of criminal acts, stolen, etc. In all cases, the manufacturer wouldn't be held responsible if they had included the necessary service and owner's manuals.

So what you're essentially saying is that you don't think the analagy is accurate, and yet other than the fact that all analogies break down somewhere, the OP isn't begging the question at all.

[shnarkle]

Imagine that a car manufacturing company, made the standard cars that we all drive today. It is equipped with a manual that tells the driver how to use the car efficiently. Although the car is equipped to engage in speeds of 120 miles per hour, the manual cautions the driver of the hazards of driving at such speeds.

Question for debate. Should the manufacturing company be held liable for people getting into accidents and sometimes causing death by driving at speeds not recommended?

I think we can translate this to the spiritual realm. Why should God be held accountable for people who make faulty decisions with their life, sometimes hurting or killing others?

King David loved the Lord the Lord said of David that he was a man after His own heart. and King David hurt and killed his tens of thousands of others. what's your point?

The point is that the manufacturer isn't responsible. What's your point?