God's spirit in the bible is God's active force or God's power; the power by which God achieves things. The Hebrew word translated into the English "spirit" is ruach and stems from the word "wind". Thus it depicts an unseen or invisible force that can have visible effects.
The member wrote the above which got me thinking that if this were the case, then it should be regarded as something which can be witnessed and understood as undeniable evidence that the biblical GOD actually exists.
The member claims;
1: It is an active force/power
2: It is able to achieve things
3: Like the wind, it is unseen other than how it affects the visible.
Given this is a biblical description of the biblical idea of GOD - primarily believed by Christians, and no doubt attached to some of the stories in the OT where this GOD is not directly seen in form but his power is witnessed, shouldn't the visible effects of this GOD be able to be witnessed through the examining of Christian, Jewish and Muslim behavior - at the very least?
We do have accounts of the 'Holy Ghost' at work in this evident manner, throughout the Abrahamic writ, where the GOD chooses to remain invisible rather than display himself in form.
In relation to Jesus, he mentions the HG as a 'comforter' who he would 'send' which implies that he would send the breath of the GOD (his Father) after he left the planet, in order to comfort those he left behind.
In Acts we get a story of how this 'Comforter' displayed GODs visible power by causing instant death and numbing fear. Hardly something which would comfort most people.
But the claim from the member is that this spirit is evidence of GOD - like the effect on visible nature is evidence of the wind.
Can anyone point out where this evidence of the holy ghost/spirit is in the world today, and if so, can this evidence be accepted as the evidence for GOD, people are demanding?
First of all, the Holy Spirit is NOT just some force. He's a person, specifically, the third person of the Trinity. That's how the Bible presents him. Consider the following:
The word for “Spirit� (pneuma) is neuter and would naturally take neuter pronouns to have grammatical agreement. But John uses masculine pronouns when referring to him (e.g., John 15:26; 16:13-14). This indicates that he is a person, not an "it".
The Holy Spirit is the subject of verbs that require a personal agent. For example, the Spirit searches all things (1 Cor. 2:10). He knows the mind of God (1 Cor. 2:11). He teaches the gospel to believers (1 Cor. 13). He raises Jesus from the dead (Rom. 1:11). He bears witness (Rom. 8:16). He intercedes on our behalf (Rom. 8:26-27). In fact, in that last passage, it states that God knows the mind of the Spirit. Mere energy does NOT have a mind. But Paul states that the Holy Spirit has one, making him a person.
The Holy Spirit’s attributes also speak of his personhood. The Holy Spirit has life (Romans 8:2), has a will (1 Corinthians 12:11), is omniscient (1 Corinthians 2:10–11), is eternal (Hebrews 9:14), and is omnipresent (Psalm 139:7). A mere force could not possess all of these attributes, but the Holy Spirit does. And since these are also the attributes of God, that makes him God.
And we can see from the Bible that the apostles understood the Holy Spirit to be a person/God. Take the story of Ananias and Sapphira found in Acts 5. Peter says to Ananias that he has lied to the Holy Spirit (v. 3) and then says that he lied to God (v.4) In other words, he is equating the Holy Spirit with God. And you lie to a person, not to mere energy. As for this not being comforting, actually, it is to the believer. It says that God isn't going to let people get away with their sins. That means the person who cheats me is going to answer to God. Justice will be done. There is comfort in that.
And when Jesus says he is going to send “another� helper (John 14:16), he uses the word "allos" for "another". There are two Greek words that can be translated as “another�. “Heteros� means another of a different kind. “Allos� means another of the same kind. Because Jesus uses the latter, we know that he is going to send another being like himself. And the Greek word for “helper� is used primarily of people, and never of mere energy.
As to his role, I have already noted a few of his jobs above, namely, that he teaches the gospel to believers and he intercedes with God on their behalf. Additionally, he was personally involved in creation (Genesis 1:2), empowers God’s people (Zechariah 4:6), guides (Romans 8:14), comforts (John 14:26), convicts (John 16:8), teaches (John 16:13), restrains sin (Isaiah 59:19), and gives commands (Acts 8:29). Each of these works requires the involvement of a person rather than a mere force, thing, or idea.
As to evidence of the Holy Spirit's work in the world and, consequently, evidence of God the Father, I can give you several specific public examples:
There is the atheist who is drawn to Jesus by the Holy Spirit. Look at the testimonies of people such as C.S. Lewis, Lee Strobel, Hugh Ross, J. Warner Wallace, for example.
There is the drug addict or alcoholic or liar or homosexual or adulterer who is free from the power of those sins thanks to the Holy Spirit. See Dennis Jernigan's testimony here re: his release from homosexuality:
Then there are miracles of healing. I have experienced a miraculous healing, a healing that the doctor himself recognized as miraculous since medicine had nothing to do with it and the problem would never have gone away on its own. In fact, I personally know several people who have had miraculous healings with no natural explanation. Craig Keener did a massive study of the topic. He speaks about his work here:
Then there are the answers to prayers in many areas of life. I know many people who have prayed for money, but didn't mention their need to anybody. The money came in different ways for different people. For example, for one of my friends needing rent money, the exact amount needed was left in an envelope in her mailbox. She never knew who brought it.
I know someone who prayed about not having money for groceries and a friend appeared at her door with bags of groceries -- every single thing on her list. The friend said she went to the grocery store and in the middle of one aisle the Lord told her to get those things and deliver them to her door.
I have had the Lord tell me to pray about something specific for people. Later, someone will come to me with a problem and I tell them that the Lord has already told me about it and I have been praying about it. They are always amazed because they're intensely personal things that they have never shared with anyone.
These are simple things that show God's interest in the individual's needs and problems and how he steps into our lives and acts. They are a witness to his reality.
Most of what you report of as evidence is circumstantial at best and there is a lot of hearsay involved re testimony, which - although I wouldn't discount offhand, still needs to be understood for what it is and not conflated with evidence which clearly shows that the first proves the second.
Also, the main focus of the OP was not to argue whether this HS is a living self aware entity or not, but specifically to examine the claim that wherever this entity is said to affect events in this world, that this of itself is evidence of the biblical GOD.
For example, there are claims in other religions that prayers to their GOD (not the biblical god) result in similar testimonies which people see - as you see - are evidence that their particular GOD is real.
Some even go so far as to see this as evidence that the spirit behind all these ideas of GOD is pointing to one idea of GOD which is NOT any particular religions idea of GOD. This particular outlook re the circumstantial evidence, is one I think to be the most likely explanation, simply because it takes away an unnecessary and oft damaging attempt at splicing branches [of explanation] onto a 'tree' which does not need those extra branches, so to speak.
The Abrahamic idea of GOD seems to be a singular masculine humanoid being enthroned and worshiped in that manner.
However there is also biblical and other reference to GOD being 'spirit' which is something else again, and this reference to spirit may indeed be referencing GOD independent of any particular religion or form any particular religion places on any idea of GOD.
So while indeed your post most obviously conveys your particular beliefs on the matter, this in itself does not equate to evidence of the sort the OP is asking for, due to those things I mention.
William wrote:But the claim from the member is that this spirit is evidence of GOD
No, the above was presented as evidence of what the bible is refering to when it uses the term "ruah" (translated into the English spirit). In other words, that in the biblical context I was arguing that the word "sprit" is depicting an active force (comparable to the wind). I was in no way presenting my arguments as evidence of God's existence, and was not saying that because the bible says God's spirit is a powerful force that God must therefore exist.
You statement is, in my personal opinion, a contextual misrepresentation of what I was arguing and I invite readers to follow the link provided back to the orignal thread.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:12 am, edited 4 times in total.
First, I do know the original context of the quote, but "God's spirit" has many connotations and even denotations in the Bible: "God's spirit" in the O.T. is significantly different from "God's spirit" in the New. So listing down three all-inclusive attributes is anachronistic and reductionary, and seems to be tweaked to make the Christian position look silly.
But I will entertain the question:
Can anyone point out where this evidence of the holy ghost/spirit is in the world today, and if so, can this evidence be accepted as the evidence for GOD, people are demanding?
I was quite doubtful, even as a Christian, of the H.S.'s influence on the world. Theologically I came to accept and understand the first two persons of the trinity, but the third remained elusive. I even doubted the influence of Christianity upon an individual's character: that is, I didn't see why Christianity should make a person any better than common sense should: treat others as you would be treated seemed straightforward. But then, I grew up and matured in Christian environments.
It wasn't until I was immersed in secular environments that I saw a real difference between Christians and non-Christians in terms of behavior and, to be frank, moral dispositions. I am still wrestling with the discrepancy because, quite frankly, I have always found something almost cheezy about assuming Christians are morally better than non. And yet, the more immersed I become in secular environments, the more I see a remarkable difference between Christian and non.
Is this "evidence" of the H.S.? Well obviously it is hearsay, insofar as it is personal testimony. However, it is interesting that the precept "treat others as you would be treated" is so widely accepted, and flourishes most (not everywhere, but most) in Christian societies.
(Please note: biblically the H.S. in the bible is involved in changing men. Thus I address where I have seen the character of men changed. I myself avoid this angle when attempting apologetics. I stick to historical evidence for the resurrection, philosophical reasoning for a supernatural entity, and philosophical reasoning for the existence of morals).
William wrote:
Can anyone point out where this evidence of the holy ghost/spirit is in the world today, and if so, can this evidence be accepted as the evidence for GOD, people are demanding?
Emphasis mine
Yes people can point. Whether that evidence pointed to is accepted cannot be predicted. I would point to the physical universe which is I believe the result of God's spirit and would direct people looking for evidence to examine design therein. Many former atheists have testified that they have accepted the above as evidence of God's action (via his spirit).
I also believe God's spirit can have a powerful visible effect on people today and would point to the organization, achievements and behaviour of Jehovah's Witnesses (see below).
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
William wrote: shouldn't the visible effects of this GOD be able to be witnessed through the examining of Christian, Jewish and Muslim behavior - at the very least?
No, this assumes that holy spirit (the power of God) is automatically attributed to nominal Christians, Jews and Muslims. Biblically this is not the case. If the bible is to believed holy spirit is attributed to those he deems worthy of receiving it and can be lost subsequent to engaging in behaviour that God judges to be unacceptable.
QUESTION What effect does the holy spirit have on an individual's behaviour?
Although powerful miraculouse works can biblically be attributed to having God's spirit, the bible indicates such extraordinary powers would not be enduring evidence for Christians. On the other hand the bible provides a list of qualities that can be considered evidence of having holy spirit, in short having God's spirit does indeed have a powerful effect on the behaviour of true Christians. Such qualities are referred to as "the fruitage of God's spirit" (NWT) found in the bible book of Galatians
The fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.
It is my personal belief that as a group the behavior, achievements and standards of Jehovah's Witnesses is evidence that they collectively have God's spirit.
No, the above was presented as evidence of what the bible is refering to when it uses the term "ruah" (translated into the English spirit). In other words, that in the biblical context I was arguing that the word "sprit" is depicting an active force (comparable to the wind). I was in no way presenting my arguments as evidence of God's existence, and was not saying that because the bible says God's spirit is a powerful force that God must therefore exist.
You statement is, in my personal opinion, a contextual misrepresentation of what I was arguing and I invite readers to follow the link provided back to the orignal thread.
Okay - so your claim is that what you said has been misrepresented by me?
Are you saying that The Spirit is in no way representative of a GODs power? Are you saying simply that this is how the bible depicts it, but now how you personally understand it?
Please clarify for me and the reader in general, exactly what you were trying to convey that you now claim I got wrong.
In the mean time it is easy enough to simply get back to the topic, because apparently the bible does at least 'depict' that this is how evidence of GOD could be seen in the world ...way back 'when'.
Is this simply a case of "that was 'then' and this is 'now'"?
First, I do know the original context of the quote, but "God's spirit" has many connotations and even denotations in the Bible:
No surprises there!
"God's spirit" in the O.T. is significantly different from "God's spirit" in the New.
Different 'GODs' maybe? Will you be explaining to the reader exactly what those 'significant differences' are?
Perhaps one is a 'Jewish' spirit while the other is a 'Christian' one?
First, I do know the original context of the quote, but "God's spirit" has many connotations and even denotations in the Bible: "God's spirit" in the O.T. is significantly different from "God's spirit" in the New.
I don't know about the rest of the readers, but you lost me there liamconnor. Can you clarify?
I was quite doubtful, even as a Christian, of the H.S.'s influence on the world. Theologically I came to accept and understand the first two persons of the trinity, but the third remained elusive. I even doubted the influence of Christianity upon an individual's character: that is, I didn't see why Christianity should make a person any better than common sense should: treat others as you would be treated seemed straightforward. But then, I grew up and matured in Christian environments.
It wasn't until I was immersed in secular environments that I saw a real difference between Christians and non-Christians in terms of behavior and, to be frank, moral dispositions. I am still wrestling with the discrepancy because, quite frankly, I have always found something almost cheezy about assuming Christians are morally better than non. And yet, the more immersed I become in secular environments, the more I see a remarkable difference between Christian and non.
Is this "evidence" of the H.S.? Well obviously it is hearsay, insofar as it is personal testimony. However, it is interesting that the precept "treat others as you would be treated" is so widely accepted, and flourishes most (not everywhere, but most) in Christian societies.
(Please note: biblically the H.S. in the bible is involved in changing men. Thus I address where I have seen the character of men changed. I myself avoid this angle when attempting apologetics. I stick to historical evidence for the resurrection, philosophical reasoning for a supernatural entity, and philosophical reasoning for the existence of morals).
It seems you are saying that 'no' There is no conclusive evidence of the HS in action which can indicate evidence that GOD exists because there are other ways of explaining those things, other than 'supernaturally'. Is that a fair reflection of the above paragraphs?
Yes people can point. Whether that evidence pointed to is accepted cannot be predicted.
It is pretty simply really. One is not asking for evidence which can be interpreted as evidence that the biblical GOD exists, but evidence that can be accepted without a shadow of doubt.
I would point to the physical universe which is I believe the result of God's spirit and would direct people looking for evidence to examine design therein.
Indeed that is a good argument for GOD existing. However, you have conflated that with the Biblical idea of GOD and decided that the existence of the universe being evidence of a 'GODs Spirit' is thus evidence of the biblical GODs existence. It is not.
I also believe God's spirit can have a powerful visible effect on people today and would point to the organization, achievements and behaviour of Jehovah's Witnesses (see below).
The biblical GOD always finding opportunity to get a plug in wherever he can...resorting to pamphlets and promises in lieu of the power of the spirit. Don't want to spook anyone, right? Been there, done that, not a good look? Time for clean clothes and faces...
"We are the true representatives of the GOD YHWH, and here is an artists impression of what He - the LORD - looks likes. See the resemblance?" We call it 'evidence'.
