"The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a mons

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William
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"The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a mons

Post #1

Post by William »

"The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster"

Obviously this is one of many differing interpretations of the Abrahamic belief systems.

What makes this statement of belief any more truthful than statements of belief contrary to this?

What is meant by 'the real Jesus'? Is there a 'false Jesus'?

How is one to tell the difference?

In the same vein, what is meant by 'the real YHVH'? Is there a 'false YHVH'?

Is the difference understood in the actions assigned to YHVH which are monstrosities, as actions NOT done by YHWH at all?

If these things be truth, how do the Abrahamic writs stack up which offer both 'true' and 'false' as being attributes of the one and the same?

Indeed, wouldn't the idea that "The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster." - if truth - mean that very few individuals are actually getting it right and in that, those who are getting it wrong, 'rule the roost' in sheer strength of numbers and the world is a much worse place because of this?

Note: As a Panetheist, the idea of Jesus being an aspect of GOD is no different than the idea that we are all aspects of GOD-Consciousness, so I don't personally hold that as being a false assertion, and certainly much of what Jesus does say speaks to the logic of Panentheism anyway.
In the same way, in relation to YHWH - and for that matter every human idea of GOD - I see something of the local GOD (The Earth Entity) attempting to express ideas into Its offspring to do with GOD which have then been twisted to suit the off-spring agenda which is contrary to the EE's agenda and therein sometimes acts of monstrosity are said to be perpetrated by the local GOD - dressed up as a humanoid on a throne - when it is men and men alone doing the dirty bizz in the name of this false idea of GOD.

In short, this 'off-spring agenda' revolves around the notion of how to actually control all the EE's off-spring in order to indirectly (and for that matter impermanently) control the EE.

(Adding the idea that GOD is ''Omni' simply adds to the confusion)

Therein is the manifestation of evil.


But that is just my understanding of what is going on...you may have your own answers to the OP questions. Certainly I am interested in reading them.

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Re: "The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a

Post #2

Post by liamconnor »

[Replying to post 1 by William]
"The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster"

Obviously this is one of many differing interpretations of the Abrahamic belief systems.

What makes this statement of belief any more truthful than statements of belief contrary to this?
It is unclear what is meant by "this statement of belief". If you mean the first line, then obviously "reality" makes it true or false, and reasoning uncovers the reality.
What is meant by 'the real Jesus'? Is there a 'false Jesus'?

Where the distinction occurs, most are differentiating the historical Jesus from the Jesus "of faith": or in other words, the person that actually lived and walked 1st c. Palestine, and the Jesus which other men invented, whether intentionally or unwittingly.
How is one to tell the difference?
By Reasoning skills.
In the same vein, what is meant by 'the real YHVH'? Is there a 'false YHVH'?
I have never heard of a distinction. A reference would be helpful.

Is the difference understood in the actions assigned to YHVH which are monstrosities, as actions NOT done by YHWH at all?
Obviously some who wish to uphold the Bible as, at least, in general, to be conveying characteristics and words of God, and yet cringe at certain characteristics, will make a distinction. Jefferson's edited Bible is a good example.

If these things be truth, how do the Abrahamic writs stack up which offer both 'true' and 'false' as being attributes of the one and the same?

Indeed, wouldn't the idea that "The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster." - if truth - mean that very few individuals are actually getting it right and in that, those who are getting it wrong, 'rule the roost' in sheer strength of numbers and the world is a much worse place because of this?
You have completely lost me, primarily in your grammar and English composition: esp. "if truth-mean that very few individuals are actually getting it right and in that, those who are getting it wrong...". What does this sentence mean, in good English?

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Re: "The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a

Post #3

Post by marco »

William wrote:

"The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster"

My view is that God is a human construction with many different faces. The Biblical version of God IS monstrous; he has to be to frighten tough nomads. The version filtered through the lips of Christ bears little resemblance to the previous thing; it is a mess of love and mercy and judgement, and amounts to none of these.


The real Jesus who lived thirty years in obscurity is anyone's guess. The character who emerged for a few years to walk on foot round hills and lakes and towns, curing a blind man here and a deaf man there, is part fiction. That millions accept him as a deity is neither here nor there; numbers don't contribute to an intelligent thought.



Modern develpments that spread God around the ether and make him breathe in harmony with humans are no more than nice artwork. They are as much fiction as is Yahweh or Allah, Thor or Zeus. Given a choice I would take Zeus.

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Re: "The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a

Post #4

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 2 by liamconnor]

Liam, Willism is taking lines from my signature and using them for topics of debate. Fair enough, but it should be noted that my signature statements have the preamble "my theological positions".

You understood perfectly what I meant by the "real Jesus". Real, meaning the historical Jesus as opposed to the "Christ of Faith". Thank you.

"The real YHVH is not a monster" calls for some clarification. By that statement I meant that I believe the real YHVH, is not the caricture that many skeptics, and even the Bible itself at times makes Him out to be.

My position is that yes, YHVH is reflected in the Bible, but ony imperfectly. I believe the real YHVH transcends even the Bible. And that the Bible "gets it wrong" sometimes in attributing some actions and commands to YHVH which are in reality human projections.

The skeptic would probably say that the Bible is entirely human projection. By contrast, I believe there is a Divine reality behind the Bible, which inspired the ancients, primitive as they were, to write about their experiences, their encounters with the Divine.

In a sense, the pure, undiluted Divine inspiration has been tainted by the innate bias of the ancient Hebrews That primitive bias accounts for some passages such as the "slave-beating" verses in Exodus.

An example where I believe the Ancients "got it right", by contrast, is the passage from Micah. "He has told you, O man, what is good ans what does YHVH require of you, but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly wiith thy God".

This does not sound like the same God who said, presumably through Moses that it is permissible to beat one's slave, and if they linger a day or two before dying, there will be no penalty, for the slave is the slave owners "property".

How does one decide what is a pure, Divinely inspired passage, and what is a tainted, primitive passage of human origin?

It is not an exact "science", but empoying one's God-given Reason and common sense goes a long way.

As Jefferson put it when commenting on his book, "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth", it is as easy as "plucking diamonds out of a dunghill".

I wonder sometimes if Jefferson was our first "historical Jesus" scholar. Though his methodology in this endeavor seems to have been far more intuitive than academic, with his process of "cherry (diamond) picking".
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: "The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a

Post #5

Post by William »

[Replying to post 3 by marco]
My view is that God is a human construction with many different faces.
My view is that GOD is consciousness so humans are a GOD construction with one similar face.

'GOD' is the experience of all individual consciousnesses together, so that we each don't have to experience that for ourselves, one life at a time.

We cannot really know the 'real' without knowing the 'false' and thus becomes problematic as one claims 'real' the other claims 'false' egocentric soup stirring the common result. Debate for the sake of it - the opportunity to slip a word in edge-way's but something to argue about for the sake of.


Bait the hook cast the fly...on the 'right' side if you please. That is where all things fishy originate.

In what way is Lucifer = to Jesus? Is it all really a numbers game? Try A=6 and see for yourself.

"Meantime Life Outside Goes On All Around You"

Jesus: "It's alright mother, I'm only bleeding" and "YHVH why didth thou forsake me?!"

YHVH: "Jesus, I am your Father!"

Jesus: "NOOOOoooooooooooo0000000000000!"

YHVH: "Together we can rule the Galaxy!"

Jesus: "It is written - 'only GOD can rule the Galaxy!" Depart from me you monster!!

YHVH: "One ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them..."

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Re: "The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a

Post #6

Post by marco »

William wrote:


My view is that GOD is consciousness so humans are a GOD construction with one similar face.



That's a harmless view and doesn't add to or subtract from the bits and pieces of daily routine. Mount Everest and the Mariana Trench might be bits of God's body. The Abrahamic God requires some sort of recognition, daily if possible, and appropriate words of submission. It's the Abrahamic God who threans to break up any aircraft I might be in, so I am more interested in talking about him.

From the biographical details we have of Jesus, he seems to be a nice human rather than a severe God.

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Re: "The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a

Post #7

Post by William »

[Replying to post 6 by marco]
That's a harmless view and doesn't add to or subtract from the bits and pieces of daily routine. Mount Everest and the Mariana Trench might be bits of God's body. The Abrahamic God requires some sort of recognition, daily if possible, and appropriate words of submission. It's the Abrahamic God who threans to break up any aircraft I might be in, so I am more interested in talking about him.
Each to there own of course. Are you interested in the real Abrahamic God or the false Abrahamic God? I ask, because that is part of the OP question.

Also, where did you get this idea this Abrahamic God threatens to break up any aircraft you are in?
In relation to that, how do you know that this is a threat from the real Abrahamic God rather than the monster one?
From the biographical details we have of Jesus, he seems to be a nice human rather than a severe God.
For the most part yes. He has his 'monster' moments too, by all accounts.

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Re: "The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a

Post #8

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 7 by William]

OK William, doesn't Panentheism itself teach that God is in all, but transcends as well? God is more then the sum of His parts. (Creation). He is in Creation, but He is also more than Creation.

In a similar fashion, I am saying that the real YHVH transends Creation, but also that He transcends the Bible itself.

I don't see the Bible as perfect or infallible. I do see the Bible as a source of Spiritual inspiration. But having said that, I see that the Bible seems to have gotten it wrong, from time to time about YHVH. The narrative "storybook" aspects of the Bible have YHVH at times violating His own Laws, and engaging in, or commanding cruelty.

He is not the monster He is (sometimes) depicted to be.

To paraphrase Thomas Paine regarding the Bible, "there can be no greater calumny than to attribute the wickedness of man, to the commands of the Almighty".

He may have used the word "blasphemy".

Let me put it this way. "Pananetheism" "Pan" the name of which means "all". Do you subscribe to everything the Greek myths say about the god "Pan"? Or do you see Pan as transcending those myths?

Or is there a "true" Pan, and a false Pan.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: "The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a

Post #9

Post by William »

[Replying to post 8 by Elijah John]
OK William, doesn't Panentheism itself teach that God is in all, but transcends as well? God is more then the sum of His parts. (Creation). He is in Creation, but He is also more than Creation.
In the same way we are more than our bodies. We transcend our bodies because we are not our bodies we are the GOD-Consciousness within our bodies.

Image
In a similar fashion, I am saying that the real YHVH transends Creation, but also that He transcends the Bible itself.
Preaching to the choir here Elijah John. Check out my Members notes on the subject.

♦ Is The Bible Really The Word Of GOD? Image

At the link, there are such subjects as;

Is the bible really 'The Word of GOD'?

You know that the horrific stories in the bible attributed to GOD didn't actually happen so why use those to argue that GOD does not exist or if so, is evil?

Cherry-picking the bits that suit the individual - the word of GOD is good.

I understand the bible as a political tool...

Selective Interpretation

Selective Interpretation

Everything in the Bible is true?

Did Jesus dismiss Yahweh?

Biblical references are not necessarily GOD inspired Scripture. Sort the wheat from the chaff.

The problem with making an idol out of anything is that one is blinded to any other truth which questions the significance of the idol

The Holy Idol - Having an image of a god which speaks to you.

Idolizing Imagery

Idolizing Written Words

Interview with Mauro Biglino: The bible doesn’t talk about GOD

Idolizing Written Words - the last bastion of the infatuated - covering up one's ears so that the truth about something is not heard.

Without the law, how are you or any other religious person ABLE to ACCUSE others of SIN?

I don't see the Bible as perfect or infallible. I do see the Bible as a source of Spiritual inspiration.
Have you found anything which is outside the bible which you think is a source of 'Spiritual inspiration'?
I don't see the Bible as perfect or infallible. I do see the Bible as a source of Spiritual inspiration. But having said that, I see that the Bible seems to have gotten it wrong, from time to time about YHVH. The narrative "storybook" aspects of the Bible have YHVH at times violating His own Laws, and engaging in, or commanding cruelty.

He is not the monster He is (sometimes) depicted to be.
Preaching to the choir here Elijah John. Check out my Members notes on the subject.

♦ The Earth EntityImage

At the link, there are such subjects as;

♦The Earth Entity
Expanding on the idea of the planet being the form of a living self aware creative intelligent being.

♦ What else explains anything? Non consciousness?

♦ GOD is the subjective and all objective experience is in the mind of GOD

♦ Something can not be made from nothing.

♦ To a pretend 'Entityist' from a genuine 'Entityist' When atheists pretend to be theists in order to try and make points...

♦ Possibilities need to be explored. Belief is not required.


Within the topic I often say that I think YHWH is one of the many names of the Local GOD, the EE. This may not sit well with folk who believe that YHWH is First Source, but at those levels the 'GODs' understand each other as equally all aspects of FS, so seek to express that through the form they occupy.
To paraphrase Thomas Paine regarding the Bible, "there can be no greater calumny than to attribute the wickedness of man, to the commands of the Almighty".

He may have used the word "blasphemy".
Preaching to the choir here Elijah John. Check out my Members notes on the subject.

♦What I think about consciousness in relation to this reality.Image

At the link, there are such subjects as;


•Consciousness is life and purposeful.

•Brief Model of First Source Reality.

•A GOD can change Its mind and still be regarded as a GOD.

•Does God cause evil?

•From Random Ramblings to Members Notes

•Consciousness supports its own existence.

•Consciousness with in form motion.

•The Prison Planet and no memory of committing a crime we are supposed to be guilty of... [2][3] [4] [5]


and also;

♦ The Dangers of Separating Human Consciousness From Any Idea of GODImage

At the link, there are such subjects as;

♦What is 'The Soul' and is it Immortal?

♦Having a GOD separate from its creation begs the question, "Where did GOD source the consciousness which is in the creation?"

♦"Hi There! I am 'GOD', your creator, and if you don't believe me I will send you to hell." Have a pleasant day....

♦Regarding the idea of Creating the experience of hell through our belief systems, in relation to afterlife...

♦A true 'logical contradiction' or something just appearing that way?


ALSO:

♦ The evolution of the understanding of the idea of GOD Image

At the link, there are such subjects as;

Earth Entity


♦If GOD was female?

♦The GOD of many names and faces.

♦The Local GOD - Entity Earth.

♦The Local GOD - Entity Earth. 2

♦The Mediums between GOD and Individual

♦The day the Fat Lady sings

♦Earth Entity as an aspect of GOD (a GOD but not THE GOD)[/b]

♦Speaking of the local GOD...

♦Religion is just one aspect in which the Earth Entity uses to attract human attention.

♦Hearing the presences of Brethren.

♦Anthropomorphism - The fog of confusion lifts over human understanding..."GOD" is not like "Human".

♦Consciousness is all inclusive.

♦The larger part our subconscious plays in relation to connecting with the mind of Earth Entity.

♦Subconscious experience is the interface between GOD and the individual.

♦Our Mother Who Is In Heaven...

♦Discernment=Options

♦The evidence is within the fact of the evidence.

♦Life begat life - Consciousness is life.

♦Life begat life - Consciousness is life and purposeful 2

♦Evidence of Self Conscious Intelligence ~ Bees.

♦ET - or perhaps a former species evolved in the dinosaur age.

♦Creation is not the Creator.

♦ Until Death Do We Part.

♦GOD Earth Entity and ETs - the metaphore of The Garden of Eden.

♦The Earth Entity - A GOD in its own right. +

♦b]Prayer [Requests to one's idea of GOD ] is said to work for all types of belief systems

♦Rebuking the reprobate belief systems.

♦Victim blaming to save God's character

♦Is Belief in a GOD simply the yearnings of our ancestors to make sense of the incomprehensible?

♦The theory of Intelligent Design in relation to the theory of evolution.

♦What would a perfect GOD do?

♦Did Jesus dismiss Yahweh?

♦Sacrifice and atonement, forgiveness and revenge. How is justice understood?

♦Seeing GOD in the actions attributed to Yahweh - can this be done? What is the naked Truth? [2] [3] [4]

♦GOD knows Itself always in the position of the Actuality, and in that, is always in the position that my position is 'catching up with' and that this process is me evolving in my understanding of the idea of GOD.

♦Can we find good in God?

♦If the idea of GOD is 'evolving', then what's the problem? If 'static' then yes - therein is the problem.

♦The idea that GOD is the same 'yesterday, today and forever' can be aligned with the idea of a GOD evolving within the understanding of human beings.

♦We do not notice immaturity until we start to mature.

♦First remove the husk from the seed, then plant, nurture and see the plant mature...

♦I wonder if we look for perfection in all things, because we sense it is somehow missing?

♦Every 'thing' exists in the Mind Of The First Source



If you haven't skipped all the above it should be obvious to you - my brother - that we are pretty much on the same page....
Let me put it this way. "Pananetheism" "Pan" the name of which means "all". Do you subscribe to everything the Greek myths say about the god "Pan"? Or do you see Pan as transcending those myths?

Or is there a "true" Pan, and a false Pan.
Is there a 'true all' and a 'false all'?

Can one brother reach out to another and have his arms cut off for doing so because the other brother saw only an offensive thing?

Should the now- armless brother blame YHWH because the offended brother claims YHWH is his GOD?

Can the offended brother tell the brother harmed, what is 'true' and what is 'false'?

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Last edited by William on Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Elijah John
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Re: "The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a

Post #10

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 9 by William]

I think, what we have here is (as they said in the movie) a failure to communicate. I think we are closer on this than we realize, but frequently talk past each other.

Except my "panentheism" is in a Judeo-Christian context. "YHVH", derives from the verb "to be" that is, as I understand it, makes Him the ground of all being.

He is in us, but also beyond us.

Yup, we can argue or debate the details, but I don't think we are all that far apart...in essence. ;)
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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