Can we accept Romans 13;1-7 TO Justify submission today?

[dio9]

Romans 13:1-7
[A Christian’s Duties to the State ] ?

OMG, can this exhortation by Paul really be used today to justify governing authorities ? Can an Evangelical honestly say God put the governing authority we have today in place ? How can the AG suggest his authority is put in place by God, After having seen so much In the 20th century a Hitler , a Mao, a Stalin, a Pal Pot and lesser devils.
Is there anyone who can argue this governing authority we have today is in place instituted by God , and anyone who resists is opposing God's command?

Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God. So then, the one who resists the authority is opposing God’s command, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have its approval. .

[JehovahsWitness]

I understand the bible as a political tool...

Not for Jehvah's Witnesses it isn't. Jehovah's Witnesses don't take the principle of relative submission to mean we should be involved in politics. JWs don't vote or hold political office nor do we participate in political movements that call for social change. We maintain strict political neutrality.

For us being submissive to authorities does not impose involvement in the world's politics.

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Paul himself flees from the governing authorities in Acts 14:5. Fleeing is not submission.

Paul wasn't disobeying a law he was fleeing from persecution in obedience to Christ's direct command at Matthew 20:23. Submission to ruling authorities doesn't mean willfully subjecting oneself to unlawful behaviour. Christians have the right to enjoy the protection of the law of the land or flee and Paul and his companions were no exception. There was no Jewish or Roman law that permitted the arbitrary stoning of people whose opinions one dislikes and if there were there it would violate no divine law to go elsewhere ( JWs are currently being persecuted in Russia and some have chosen to flee and seek asyllum in other countries)

[William]

[Replying to post 11 by JehovahsWitness]

Not for Jehvah's Witnesses it isn't. Jehovah's Witnesses don't take the principle of relative submission to mean we should be involved in politics. JWs don't vote or hold political office nor do we participate in political movements that call for social change. We maintain strict political neutrality.

For us being submissive to authorities does not impose involvement in the world's politics.

That can be referred to as association.

The main way in which the bible was and still is used as a political tool was in the claim that it is 'The word of GOD', something which the JW org carry on the tradition of claiming, so no - the org is very much a daughter of the mother. Denying the connection doesn't in itself mean there is no connection.

As long as you pay taxes, you are involved in the political world and just claiming otherwise does not change the facts. All it does is show how denial works, which in itself is a handy thing to be shown.

I do not vote, but like you - I put my mark on things which allow for me to live in the politically maintained system that I do - and that is a vote in itself. I am under no illusion that I am part of the politics, just as surely as I am a prisoner of the prison the politics have created.

Believing 'Jesus gonna make it alright' might allow for me to think I am free from it all...but that is not my style. I prefer to face the facts.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 3 by JehovahsWitness]

Pharaoh comes to mind as one authority figure who was not allowed by God to keep the Hebrews in submission.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 3 by JehovahsWitness]

Pharaoh comes to mind as one authority figure who was not allowed by God to keep the Hebrews in submission.

True and he was warned about doing so many times. When verbal warnings didn't work, God sent plagues. When that didn't work and Pharaoh tried to enforce his law back onto the Hebrews, what happened to him and his entire army? This is what we call in the literary world, foreshadowing.

We must also understand that the Hebrews were under harsh conditions for many years before those plagues and the destruction of the pharaoh. Not that violating God's laws are not costly now. The man hours and the gobs of money to enforce these laws that have no benefit are like a plague. East and West Germany comes to mind. The cost to keep the Iron Curtain up was huge. Along with severe corruption in the government, It ended up being a major contributing factor as to why the USSR fell apart.

[DPMartin]

Romans 13:1-7
[A Christian’s Duties to the State ] ?

OMG, can this exhortation by Paul really be used today to justify governing authorities ? Can an Evangelical honestly say God put the governing authority we have today in place ? How can the AG suggest his authority is put in place by God, After having seen so much In the 20th century a Hitler , a Mao, a Stalin, a Pal Pot and lesser devils.
Is there anyone who can argue this governing authority we have today is in place instituted by God , and anyone who resists is opposing God's command?

Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God. So then, the one who resists the authority is opposing God’s command, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have its approval. .

the same man was put to death by Roman authorities in government.


if you value your life that you will most certainly loss, then you will go by your own judgement of what is good for you.

if you value the Life of Christ once received that is everlasting then you will not only submit, but agree that only God's Judgement is good for you.

only God's Judgment is good for His creation and the creatures therein, no exceptions.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 11 by JehovahsWitness]


As long as you pay taxes, you are involved in the political world and just claiming otherwise does not change the facts.

I am presenting the fact of how we Jehovah's Witnesses interpret relative submission as presented in the bible, I am not suggesting atheists and people without spirituality or faith will view our position in the same way. How others view our position and whether they believe we are or are not obeying the bible mandate by paying taxes is of absolutely no concern to us whatsoever.

I took the OP was an invitation to share views on how, if at all, believers apply Romans 13 I have shared the JEHOVAH'S WITNESS VIEW; it was not a request for approval or agreement or an endeavor to find a concensus, it was a statement of fact as to our official position.

Your own contrary view regarding our position has been duly noted, thanks for sharing.


JW

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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 364#827364

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 3 by JehovahsWitness]

Pharaoh comes to mind as one authority figure who was not allowed by God to keep the Hebrews in submission.

Yes indeed! It should be noted that Romans 13:1-7 doesn't apply to Almighty God. He has not been commanded to be in submission to anyone, the rule was for humans (Christians).

YHWH (Jehovah) God is the supreme ruler of the universe and King of eternity and as such if he chooses to use his position on behalf of his people (as was the case for the enslaved Israelites in Moses' day) then he can do so. Which is why my posts in this thread have been referencing to the idea that the bible indicates that the time designated for human domination is limited.


JW

[dio9]

What I'd like to find out is Romans 13:1-7 , almighty God the father's direction to Christians , Christ's , or Paul's? In other words are Christians commanded to be submissive to authority, even if the authority is not placed in their position by God?
Can a democratically elected official put in place by the people claim divine right to justify their actions? Can an official appointed by Man use Romans 13 or any scriptural reference to justify a policie?

[2timothy316]

What I'd like to find out is Romans 13:1-7 , almighty God the father's direction to Christians , Christ's , or Paul's? In other words are Christians commanded to be submissive to authority, even if the authority is not placed in their position by God?
Can a democratically elected official put in place by the people claim divine right to justify their actions? Can an official appointed by Man use Romans 13 or any scriptural reference to justify a policie?

Reading the scriptures tells us that man is allowed to govern by God. The Scriptures say that God has given those governments a set of good rules to follow. However, the Scriptures also tell us that Satan is in control of these governments and can 'give these governments to whomever he chooses'. (Luke 4:5,6)

Knowing these things can an official use the scriptures to justify their actions?

No. In Luke 4:9-12 Satan used scripture to try and justify to Jesus that he should be able to throw himself off a high tower. Jesus refused and answered back to Satan with another scripture that one shouldn't put God to the test. Jesus was quoting Deuteronomy 6:16. Which is part of a speech to the nation of Israel that they should not put God to the test by taking chances with their lives by deviating from God commandments.

So in short, an official can't use Scripture to be justified by God when their actions are putting God's other commandments to the test. It didn't work for Satan it's not going to work for them when their judgement day arrives.

So let's apply this in today's circumstances: Can an official use Scriptures to justify securing their borders? Yes. There are many instances were God did this and still does when it comes to worship. Can an official use Scriptures to justify terrorizing families trying to escape death at the hands of a gang? No. When the Israel left Egypt, many Egyptians came with them. Jehovah cares for those being oppressed and has many times opened His boarders to those seeking asylum and something better. The book of Ruth gives us a prime example of this. She was escaping a drought and she apparently didn't like the gods her countrymen worshiped. After all they did burn their children in sacrifice to their gods. So yeah, who'd wand to stay in a place like that?

Deuteronomy 10:19 says to 'love the foreigner among you'. This is a fine example of a good principle to apply and to use the Scriptures to negate this principle it seems to me to be 'putting God to the test'. How? By risking other peoples' lives by pushing these away and then perhaps saying in one's heart, 'let God save them because we are not going to save them as we have no love for them'. This type of thinking is in direct violation of the 2nd greatest commandment, to love your neighbor as yourself. Which a person disobeys the 2nd greatest commandment this then disobeys the 1st greatest commandment to love God with your whole life, mind and heart.