Is the Bible the inerrant Word of God?

[Elijah John]

For those who claim that the Bible is the "inerrant Word of God" why do you believe this?

Seems to me the arguments to support this belief are usually circular. As in "The Bible is inerrant because it is the Word of God". And evidence that the Bible is the Word of God?" Because the Bible is without error or contradiction", i.e. inerrant.

Consider this OP a challenge. Give the skeptic a better argument to convince them that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God than the usual circular argument.

Why do you believe and why should the skeptic believe that the Bible is the "inerrant Word of God"?

Break out of the circle.

[PinSeeker]

Why, if everything your god does is excellently executed do we have nearly 40,000 versions of Christianity?

Due to the "excellence" (in quotes to indicate the lack thereof) of human beings.

Sin is your burden to bare.

Right, and yours. And everybody's. But only some see it as a burden. "Pilgrim's Progress" (John Bunyan) is a great -- and fun -- read.

Then your god has failed to have his message delivered due to all the differing versions that are now available to us.

No, all the versions are just translations of the original Hebrew and Greek. Some translations are not quite as others, but they still say the same thing.
When there is any perceived discrepancy between translations, we can go back to the Hebrew and Greek to get the correct message; it just takes a little diligence.

"Just look at the differing ways to get to heaven. Something crucial. Heck, even atheists can go to heaven now according to the Pope."

LOL! The Pope sure as heck ain't Jesus. He's a man, just like you and me.

What your faith does not address though is all the differing denominations of your faith or why an all powerful god would desire such thing to happen to his message.

No, my faith informs me that God will set all things to perfect unity at the day of Christ, because man has broken it -- for the time being -- due to his sin. Denominations are man's (Christians') fault, because of the sin that dwells in each of us. But again, denominations are good in the human sense because it allows us to strive for the unity that we will one day have with like-minded folks. No one desires disunity, but because of our sin, no on man can perfectly agree with any other man. One great day, there will be no more disunity of any kind.

And to clarify further, you quote mind out how they were written down by unknown authors and how that is not an assurance that they said any such words you claim they said.

I have no idea what you're saying, here, Clownboat. I can't make any sense of this sentence.

Do you mean Allah and the way he spoke through Mohammed or something else?

Mohammed actually turned Christian Scriptures that had existed for centuries at that point upside down to suit himself, thereby creating a false "Gospel" to counter Christianity and suit himself and create his own following. This was a common practice in that time. Anyway, Mohammed succeeded mightily. This was... well, it certainly wasn't God's work. But God did, obviously, allow it to happen.

He actually told Abraham this would happen way, way, WAY before that when He said he would make a nation of Ishmael, Abraham's son through his bondwoman, Hagar. Mohammed twisted the story of Abraham and the true child of the promise, Isaac (Abraham's son through the free woman, Sarah), falsely presenting Ishmael as the son of the promise. Thus, Islam.

Anyway, somehow, He's working it all together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. Don't ask me how, because, well, who has known the mind of God? But somehow.

Hey, I thought this was all about "contradictions." You got any more?

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 50 by PinSeeker]

No, all the versions are just translations of the original Hebrew and Greek. Some translations are not quite as others, but they still say the same thing.
When there is any perceived discrepancy between translations, we can go back to the Hebrew and Greek to get the correct message; it just takes a little diligence.

More accurately, miraculous diligence. There are no original texts extant. All we have are already copies and translations. Who knows what got changed in the process.

[PinSeeker]

Matthew 27:9–10
"Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the value of Him who was priced, whom they of the children of Israel priced, and gave them for the potter’s field, as the Lord directed me.�

Where do you find this in Jeremiah?

While drawing on a combination of words from Jeremiah (19:1-13) and Zechariah (11:11-13), Matthew attributes the prophecy to Jeremiah as the more prominent prophet. In the same way, Mark (1:2) combines quotations from Isaiah (40:3) and Malachi (3:1) but cites only Isaiah as the more prominent prophet.

A nice try, and a mistake easily made because the references are pretty obscure. That one is not so easy. But alas, not a contradiction.

Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet,
Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet,
Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet,

Here is something spoken by JehovahsWitness
Finally, someone offers something in the way of "contradiction," that we can actually talk about. I've been hoping and praying for this. Okay, I'm in:
Oh wait...that was actually spoken by Pinseeker. Ya see, when I (rikuo) said that that quote was said by JW, what I actually meant was that it was spoken by Pinseeker but I attributed to JW, since he's a more prominent member of the forum.

So then...wouldn't my claiming it was spoken by JW be a non-truth? A misdirection?

LOL! No, but if JW said something like "We went downtown" and I said, "Several of us drove into the city together", then, provided we were both talking about the same group of people, we both technically said the same thing. And further, and if JW was the authority figure, or somehow more authoritative in the view of other people than I, you might -- very rightly -- credit what I said to him, especially if I was drawing upon what JW said when I said what I said. And You might use my words to do it, thereby citing both of us. That's the way to see it. But you don't want to. I getcha.

[PinSeeker]

There are no original texts extant. All we have are already copies and translations. Who knows what got changed in the process.

Well, there are fragments of the original manuscripts, and copies of those, but that's not really what I was talking about. The evidence is overwhelming that the text is the same today as it was nearly 2000 years ago. You probably won't believe that, but it's true. Plus, through the many, many copies (and even translations) we do have, if all taken together, through preponderance of all the evidence, we can very safely conclude that it is identical to the original manuscripts. Again, I know you won't accept that, but no matter.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 52 by PinSeeker]

LOL! No, but if JW said something like "We went downtown" and I said, "Several of us drove into the city together", then, provided we were both talking about the same group of people, we both technically said the same thing.

It's not what was said, it's who is saying it. Jeremiah didn't say what the author of Gospel Matthew claims he said. Therefore, it's incorrect for him to have written such.

And further, and if JW was the authority figure, or somehow more authoritative in the view of other people than I, you might -- very rightly -- credit what I said to him, especially if I was drawing upon what JW said when I said what I said. And You might use my words to do it, thereby citing both of us. That's the way to see it. But you don't want to. I getcha.

I don't want to, because it would be inaccurate of me to say JW says what is in fact you. Is this done anywhere else? In academia? Elsewhere?

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 52 by PinSeeker]

LOL! No, but if JW said something like "We went downtown" and I said, "Several of us drove into the city together", then, provided we were both talking about the same group of people, we both technically said the same thing.

It's not what was said, it's who is saying it. Jeremiah didn't say what the author of Gospel Matthew claims he said. Therefore, it's incorrect for him to have written such.

And further, and if JW was the authority figure, or somehow more authoritative in the view of other people than I, you might -- very rightly -- credit what I said to him, especially if I was drawing upon what JW said when I said what I said. And You might use my words to do it, thereby citing both of us. That's the way to see it. But you don't want to. I getcha.

I don't want to, because it would be inaccurate of me to say JW says what is in fact you. Is this done anywhere else? In academia? Elsewhere?

Free your mind, Neo.

[Clownboat]

Why, if everything your god does is excellently executed do we have nearly 40,000 versions of Christianity?

Due to the "excellence" (in quotes to indicate the lack thereof) of human beings.

This is nothing more than victim blaming. Shame on you!
The message of the Bible is not clear on many crucial things. For example, requirements to get to a heaven. An all powerful god could make his message clear. The god concept you put forward failed to do that. Blame puppies for this for all it matters.

Sin is your burden to bare.

Right, and yours. And everybody's. But only some see it as a burden. "Pilgrim's Progress" (John Bunyan) is a great -- and fun -- read.

Demonstrably false.
Sin is your concepts, not one I subscribe to any longer. You believe in this sin thing and you project this sin on to others. You should stop projecting ideas that you cannot show to be real.

Consider this: Who would buy medicine before being convinced that they are sick?
You have been convinced of this sin sickness. You have subscribed to a version of a religion that supplies you with the medicine. You then project your sickness on to the rest of humanity. I'll need you to convince me that I am sick before I will buy your snake oil I'm afraid. This might prove to be challenging, so perhaps you would do better to just pretend that I'm some enemy of your church or god and you can then go on projecting your sin idea.

Then your god has failed to have his message delivered due to all the differing versions that are now available to us.

No, all the versions are just translations of the original Hebrew and Greek.

This is false as there are no originals. We just don't know what the originals might have said. Not to mention all the years of oral tradition we have in the Old Testament.
You also don't seem to be aware of just how much the English language alone has changed over the years. About 85 per cent of Old English words are no longer in use. Therefore, the delivery message chosen by you claimed all powerful god is not an effective way to deliver a message for the entire planet.

"Just look at the differing ways to get to heaven. Something crucial. Heck, even atheists can go to heaven now according to the Pope."

LOL! The Pope sure as heck ain't Jesus. He's a man, just like you and me.

You place your faith in a book written by men, and laugh at those who listen to the pope. Great way to defend the point I made about the differing ways a person can get to heaven.

No, my faith informs me that God will set all things to perfect unity at the day of Christ, because man has broken it -- for the time being -- due to his sin.

Remember, you believe you are sick though. You therefore have sought out medicine for your sickness. Again, all you are doing is pretending you have the correct medicine and then go on to blame humans. Not very convincing, but then again, I'm not sick.

Denominations are man's (Christians') fault,

False. If an all powerful god wished to deliver a message to the world, it could have done so. Humans are not more powerful than god. On second thought, perhaps you belong to a denomination that believes humans have the power over god? Is that the case?

because of the sin that dwells in each of us.

Please show that you speak the truth or kindly stop projecting your sin concepts on to the rest of humanity.

But again, denominations are good in the human sense because it allows us to strive for the unity that we will one day have with like-minded folks.

There is already unity within the different versions of your religion. What doesn't make sense is to have thousands of different version that agree with themselves but disagree with the others.

No one desires disunity, but because of our sin, no on man can perfectly agree with any other man. One great day, there will be no more disunity of any kind.

What a terrible excuse.
An all powerful god failed to deliver his message to the world, and you project sin on to all humans to excuse your all powerful god. It seems to me that your god concept lacks the power to do anything. You notice this and then blame the would be victims.

I have no idea what you're saying, here, Clownboat. I can't make any sense of this sentence.

You quote mind my statement. Look up 'quote mine'.

Do you mean Allah and the way he spoke through Mohammed or something else?

Mohammed actually turned Christian Scriptures that had existed for centuries at that point upside down to suit himself, thereby creating a false "Gospel" to counter Christianity and suit himself and create his own following.

Please show that you speak the truth. We have billions of Muslims that disagree with you, so kindly offer more than just your empty slanderous words.

This was a common practice in that time.

I see. So when Abraham did it, no big deal, but Mohammed, how dare he. This is logically inconsistent.
Seems to me that Abraham did what you accuse Mohammed of doing.

'In the Hebrew texts this word is interpreted as being semantically singular for "god" by religious readers.[8] However the documentary hypothesis developed originally in the 1870s,[9] identifies these that different authors - Jahwist, Elohist, Deuteronomist, and the Priestly source - were responsible for editing stories from a polytheistic religion into those of a monotheistic religion. Inconsistencies that arise between monotheism and polytheism in the texts are reflective of this hypothesis.'

'In the Tanakh, ’el�hîm is the normal word for a god or the great god (or gods, given that the 'im' suffix makes a word plural in Hebrew). But the form ’El also appears, mostly in poetic passages and in the patriarchal narratives attributed to the Priestly source of the documentary hypothesis. It occurs 217 times in the Masoretic Text: seventy-three times in the Psalms and fifty-five times in the Book of Job, and otherwise mostly in poetic passages or passages written in elevated prose. It occasionally appears with the definite article as h�’Ēl 'the god' (for example in 2 Samuel 22:31,33–48).'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)

Anyway, Mohammed succeeded mightily. This was... well, it certainly wasn't God's work. But God did, obviously, allow it to happen.

God allowing this, if true will cause billions of humans to burn in a hell for eternity.
Why do you think he would want such a thing?

He actually told Abraham this would happen way, way, WAY before that when He said he would make a nation of Ishmael, Abraham's son through his bondwoman, Hagar. Mohammed twisted the story of Abraham and the true child of the promise, Isaac (Abraham's son through the free woman, Sarah), falsely presenting Ishmael as the son of the promise. Thus, Islam.

For the love of all that is holy! Your faith is not being questioned. We get it, you have religious beliefs. You can get off of your soap box and start presenting us with statements that you can back up with evidence.

Anyway, somehow, He's working it all together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.

I'm sorry, but this is nothing more than cult speak. Remember, I'm not sick like you are.

Don't ask me how, because, well, who has known the mind of God?

Unacceptable. You can't make all these empty claims and then justify them with a statement such as 'who has known the mind of God'. You appear to be pretending to know the mind of a god here and now.

Hey, I thought this was all about "contradictions." You got any more?

Many potential contradictions have already been provided. I trust that the readers have read the words for themselves and will form an opinion. I don't see a reason to list more at this time.

[PinSeeker]

Hoo, boy! I got you mad as heck, don't I, Clownboat? Sorry. Not my intention.

This is nothing more than victim blaming.

LOL! I'm guilty, too, Clownboat.

The message of the Bible is not clear on many crucial things.

There are many difficult passages, for sure. But that's really because of our own limited minds. That's one good reason for believing Scripture, though, or at least thinking it might be true. Think about it. If you were putting together a book and you wanted to make it so that everybody would believe it, wouldn't you exclude anything difficult in it? Of course you would.

For example, requirements to get to a heaven. An all powerful god could make his message clear.

That's by far the clearest thing in the Bible, Clownboat. Believe in Jesus. John 3:16 known worldwide by all kinds of people. Not "everybody," of course, but all kinds of people. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." Is that not clear to you? Among Christians, there is absolutely no disunity on that, thank God.

Sin is your concept, not one I subscribe to any longer.

Oh, that's too bad.

You believe in this sin thing and you project this sin on to others.

Well, I acknowledge it in others, but I acknowledge it in myself, too.

You should stop projecting ideas that you cannot show to be real.

Oh, it's real, alright. Let me ask you something, Clownboat. This may be trivial to you, and I would agree, but it shows what's in you and me and all of us. What's your instinctive reaction when somebody cuts you off in traffic? Is it, "Man, I love that guy! He's awesome!" Or is it something else entirely? You don't have to say; I know the answer, in the general sense. That should be sufficient, but for you, probably not.

...there are no originals.

Right, but we have many, many, many copies, and they are all virtually identical. So through preponderance of the overwhelming evidence, we do have the originals. We can verify that what we have now is exactly the same as what existed in the first and second centuries A.D.

We just don't know what the originals might have said.

We know exactly what the originals said. We only have copies of the writings of guys like Aristotle and Socrates. You believe them, though, right? So why not the Bible?

You place your faith in a book written by men, and laugh at those who listen to the pope.

No, my faith is in Christ, because God has made it so. And I'm not laughing at anybody in particular, I'm just laughing at the fact that you hold up the pope as someone in possession of all truth.

If an all powerful god wished to deliver a message to the world, it could have done so.

Um, He did, Clownboat. But no human gets it all right, despite even the best of intentions. That's our fault, not His. But again, one day, He'll set it all back to the way it should be. That's what the Bible is all about. Jesus wins.

Humans are not more powerful than god. On second thought, perhaps you belong to a denomination that believes humans have the power over god? Is that the case?

No. I'm not sure how you ever got that idea.

I see. So when Abraham did it, no big deal, but Mohammed, how dare he. This is logically inconsistent. Seems to me that Abraham did what you accuse Mohammed of doing.

Okay, so here, you were responding to what I said about Mohammed and the Koran. Abraham didn't write any of Scripture, Clownboat. So there's no way Abraham could have done what I said Mohammed did. I'm not sure how you come up with something like this. Makes no sense.

God allowing this, if true will cause billions of humans to burn in a hell for eternity. Why do you think he would want such a thing?

God doesn't desire that any should perish; He desires that all would come to knowledge of the truth. (2 Timothy 2:4)

For the love of all that is holy! Your faith is not being questioned. We get it, you have religious beliefs. You can get off of your soap box and start presenting us with statements that you can back up with evidence.

Wow. smh.

Anyway, somehow, He's working it all together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.

I'm sorry, but this is nothing more than cult speak.

No, it's Bible speak. That's Romans 8:28. Another widely known, "hall of fame" Bible verse.

Remember, I'm not sick like you are.

I wish that were true. For your sake. But it's not.

Don't ask me how, because, well, who has known the mind of God?

Unacceptable.

I understand why that's unacceptable to you. Truthfully, I wish I could give you more. But some things are just unknowable, some questions unanswerable.

You can't make all these empty claims and then justify them with a statement such as 'who has known the mind of God'. You appear to be pretending to know the mind of a god here and now.

Okay wait, I'm confused. I said there are some things that are unknowable, that are just unanswerable questions. We can't know the mind of God on such questions, which applies to me, too. And you say I'm "pretending to know the mind of a god here and now"? How do you come up with that?

Hey, I thought this was all about "contradictions." You got any more?

Many potential contradictions have already been provided.

Right, and I refuted them all. Easily. I knocked them out of the park, actually, went yard on you. Got any more?

I trust that the readers have read the words for themselves and will form an opinion.

This is just you and me, Clownboat? Why are you worried about anybody else's opinion?

I don't see a reason to list more at this time.

Very well. Grace and peace to you.

[Clownboat]

Hoo, boy! I got you mad as heck, don't I, Clownboat? Sorry. Not my intention.

Please, I beg you... stop projecting your feelings and musings on to others.

This is nothing more than victim blaming.

LOL! I'm guilty, too, Clownboat.

It's reasonable for you to feel guilty of this sin concepts you are convinced you have, but projecting your feelings on to others is currently unjustified.

The message of the Bible is not clear on many crucial things.

There are many difficult passages, for sure. But that's really because of our own limited minds. That's one good reason for believing Scripture, though, or at least thinking it might be true. Think about it. If you were putting together a book and you wanted to make it so that everybody would believe it, wouldn't you exclude anything difficult in it? Of course you would.

Two things:
1) I am not an all powerful god. If I were, and if I wanted to relay a message to everyone, I would do so easily.
Consider this, you believe in a god that can create the universe with words, but when it comes to relaying a message of salvation, he gets overpowered due to humans. This does not ring true.
2) There are many difficult things in the Bible that did not get excluded. So your point is currently lost on me.

For example, requirements to get to a heaven. An all powerful god could make his message clear.

That's by far the clearest thing in the Bible, Clownboat. Believe in Jesus. John 3:16 known worldwide by all kinds of people. Not "everybody," of course, but all kinds of people. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." Is that not clear to you? Among Christians, there is absolutely no disunity on that, thank God.

Demonstrably false:
Matt 6:14-15 Jesus is claimed to have said: For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you, but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matt 12:37 Jesus is claimed to have said: for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.
Matt 19:29 Jesus is claimed to have said: And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters for father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Then there is also the Pope: Pope Francis assures atheists: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven.

Sin is your concept, not one I subscribe to any longer.

Oh, that's too bad.

It's not though. Being freed of my religious beliefs has been liberating and has allowed me to be a kinder and more loving human.

Well, I acknowledge it (sin) in others, but I acknowledge it in myself, too.

This is still you projecting your beliefs on to others and then pretending that your projections hold weight.

You should stop projecting ideas that you cannot show to be real.

Oh, it's real, alright.

With the lack of evidence you display, your assurance cannot be trusted. Sorry.

Let me ask you something, Clownboat. This may be trivial to you, and I would agree, but it shows what's in you and me and all of us. What's your instinctive reaction when somebody cuts you off in traffic?

To protect myself any anyone in the vehicle. My instinctive reaction is to move out of the way. I try not to judge them because for all I know, they just had a bee fly into their face. What matters is everyone's safety, not whether this person is a jerk or the victim of a bee.

...there are no originals.

Right, but we have many, many, many copies,

You commented about referring to originals. What you said is impossible.

and they are all virtually identical.

This is also false. See how Goliath grew in height as time passed for one example.

So through preponderance of the overwhelming evidence, we do have the originals.

It is make believe to claim this. Factually, we do not have originals, not to mention much of the Old Testament was oral tradition for many centuries before finally being penned. The original oral tradition is obviously not available to us.

We can verify that what we have now is exactly the same as what existed in the first and second centuries A.D.

This claim has been shown to be false already, but for another example:
In all Bibles, Deuteronomy 8:6 speaks of ’’fearing’’ or ’’revering’’ God, but a Dead Sea scroll says ’’loving’’ instead.
For even more examples, see: https://news.nd.edu/news/dead-sea-scrol ... rstanding/
You really need to amend your thinking on this matter.

We know exactly what the originals said.

This is still false...

We only have copies of the writings of guys like Aristotle and Socrates. You believe them, though, right?

No, not by default. However, I'm much more familiar with the Bible then the works of Aristotle or Socrates.

So why not the Bible?

The Bible contains myths that did not happen. Also has a story about person living in the belly of a whale, talking animals, walking on water and decomposing bodies coming back to life. I would not consider such claims as true if they come from Aristotle or Socrates, so why would I believe unknown authors?

You place your faith in a book written by men, and laugh at those who listen to the pope.

No, my faith is in Christ, because God has made it so.

There is no information about Christ outside of the Bible. Therefore, your faith is in the book.

And I'm not laughing at anybody in particular, I'm just laughing at the fact that you hold up the pope as someone in possession of all truth.

I do no such thing, but note that millions of Christians do.

If an all powerful god wished to deliver a message to the world, it could have done so.

Um, He did, Clownboat. But no human gets it all right,

Correct, but that is not because of humans, that would be because an all powerful god failed to accurately deliver his message. Then there is still the fact that the message has changed over the years.

But again, one day, He'll set it all back to the way it should be. That's what the Bible is all about. Jesus wins.

You would make a great Muslim! Just convert all your faith statements to Allah and Mohammed and your claims are no different.
Again, you faith is not in question. We know you have faith.

Okay, so here, you were responding to what I said about Mohammed and the Koran. Abraham didn't write any of Scripture, Clownboat. So there's no way Abraham could have done what I said Mohammed did. I'm not sure how you come up with something like this. Makes no sense.

Note, I'm not comparing how they both wrote things (because they didn't). I'm comparing how they took existing god concepts and created a new religion.

God doesn't desire that any should perish; He desires that all would come to knowledge of the truth. (2 Timothy 2:4)

Then he should not have failed in his delivery mechanism of knowledge. Since he did, this claim seems to be the writings of men creating a religion, not that of a god. We know man has invented thousands of religions after all.

I'm sorry, but this is nothing more than cult speak.

No, it's Bible speak. That's Romans 8:28. Another widely known, "hall of fame" Bible verse.

Like I said, cult speak. You belong to a cult by definition:
cult
kəlt/Submit
noun
a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.

Remember, I'm not sick like you are.

I wish that were true. For your sake. But it's not.

You have faith that I am sick. You have faith, we get that. That is not in question. Whether I actually have this sickness you have faith in is in question though.
I don't recognize this sin concept. It is your concepts. Therefore I reject your concept that I am sick until you can show that I'm sick.

Okay wait, I'm confused. I said there are some things that are unknowable, that are just unanswerable questions. We can't know the mind of God on such questions, which applies to me, too. And you say I'm "pretending to know the mind of a god here and now"? How do you come up with that?

From your words:
- But no human gets it all right, despite even the best of intentions. That's our fault, not His.
- one day, He'll set it all back to the way it should be.
- I wish that were true. For your sake. But it's not.
(From you last post only. Could go back further, but I feel justified at this point).

I trust that the readers have read the words for themselves and will form an opinion.

This is just you and me, Clownboat? Why are you worried about anybody else's opinion?

You are set in your faith and are convinced that you are sick. I have no delusions about changing your mind. However, we have many readers here that may not be convinced that they are actually sick. My words are not lost on people that still have an open mind. I debate to sharpen my own thinking and for any people following along.

[Kapyong]

Gday all,

Well, there are fragments of the original manuscripts,

No there aren't.

If YOU think there are, please name the exact manuscripts and their provenance.

Kapyong