Is anti free will mostly because of anti hell?

[Wootah]

Thought bubble.

Christianity essentially gives each of us agency, individuality, personality. We are responsible for our sins and are individual actors to such a degree that hell is justified.

Isn't all attempts to deny our individuality just an attack on the justice of hell?

[JehovahsWitness]

God apparently has free will despite being perfect.

So are you saying that in theory a being can be pefect and have free will or are you contending that God cannot be both perfect and have free will*?



* what, in your opinion is free will and why is it incompatible with what you understand to be "perfection"?

[Neatras]

[Replying to post 41 by JehovahsWitness]

I hate giving one line responses or questions, but can God sin? This will adjust my answer to your other questions.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 41 by JehovahsWitness]

I hate giving one line responses or questions, but can God sin? This will adjust my answer to your other questions.

He could if he wanted to. Why do you ask?

[Neatras]

[Replying to post 43 by JehovahsWitness]

Interesting. So this would suggest that your god could create humans entirely capable of, but not desiring to commit sin. Free will with no downsides, like what your god has.

But he chose to make beings that would choose sin. He made imperfect beings, because they could not emulate a perfect being (him, according to your doctrine).

So why didn't he actually make us perfect, and not this faux-perfect "made in his image" that has no adequate explanation?

[JehovahsWitness]

Interesting. So this would suggest that your god could create humans entirely capable of, but not desiring to commit sin. Free will with no downsides, like what your god has.

What do you mean by "free will with no downside"? I cannot comment on that because I don't know what you mean, can you explain what you mean?

• I don't see an answer to my earlier questions. Here they are again ...

So are you saying that in theory a being can be pefect and have free will or are you contending that God cannot be both perfect and have free will*?



* what, in your opinion is free will and why is it incompatible with what you understand to be "perfection"?

Do you feel inclined to answer?

[Neatras]

[Replying to post 45 by JehovahsWitness]

I'll just come up with something I think is simple. Since I'm not religious, my concept of free will probably isn't like a theist's, because they (inexplicably) believe in the concept of free will purely by faith.

Free will is the ability to "act" freely. If someone is capable of lying, but chooses not to, then they have free will. If someone is not capable of lying, they do not have free will in that capacity.

God, a being capable of all things (yet choosing not to commit sin), is often referred to as a perfect being. He made humans, and you seem to suggest we were made perfectly. But unlike your god, humans chose to commit sin, and so became corrupt.

So why did your god not imbue the nature of "free to commit sin, but choosing not to" in the first pair of humans?

Since the story of the Garden of Eden is fictitious in any regard, the whole notion of "special creation" is largely just an exercise in humdrum discussions about minute details within the story's literary elements. It doesn't have much to do with how humans actually originated on the planet. But if we were specially created, that would pose increasingly more damning questions to the story proper.

I put forward that theists who think that the story is literally true, and all of its claims are accurate are unconsciously accepting a contradictory recounting of events, and either have dissonance or complete ignorance of the dilemma: That a "created perfect being" doesn't act imperfectly. Otherwise the biblical god somehow just screwed up in endowing humans with a nature that reflects "his" image.

[JehovahsWitness]

Free will is the ability to "act" freely. If someone is capable of lying, but chooses not to, then they have free will. If someone is not capable of lying, they do not have free will in that capacity.

God, a being capable of all things (yet choosing not to commit sin), is often referred to as a perfect being

Okay so you believe that free will is the capacity to act freely and make choices, notably between good and bad.

And "perfection" being the capacity to choose not to sin (ie if you choose to sin you are imperfect and if you choose NOT to sin you are imperfect).

They are not in your opinion mutually exclusive, meaning one can be both perfect and have free will?

Does that about sum up your view? (feel free to correct me if I have misunderstood).



JW

[ttruscott]

Adam was created, all other humans (with the exception of Jesus) began their existence when they were BORN; so we were not created as sinners, we were BORN as sinners.

Does this mean that a person as a foetus has no existence or are you making an unwitting terminology mistake? Either a person's existence is at conception not birth or it is not a person until it is born....I know that you are trying to convince me that GOD is not involved in our being procreated but I must disagree.

Jacob and Esau were people with desires and plans and murderous intent when they tried to crush each other to pieces (ie, murder each other) in the womb over who would be the first born.

If we accept the doctrine that we inherit Adam's propensity to sin, then we are individuals in a system initiated and supported by GOD that has people coming into this world from supposedly nothing but a continuous dna project with a sinful nature. GOD designed the system and turned it on and HIS system produces sinners by the billions. How can it be said HE is not responsible for our sinfulness?

[JehovahsWitness]

Adam was created, all other humans (with the exception of Jesus) began their existence when they were BORN; so we were not created as sinners, we were BORN as sinners.

Does this mean that a person as a foetus has no existence or are you making an unwitting terminology mistake?

Yes, I picked up my error to late to make a correction, I believe all humans begin their existence at conception (not birth). My bad,

Thanks for pointing that out.


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

If we accept the doctrine that we inherit Adam's propensity to sin, then we are individuals in a system initiated and supported by GOD that has people coming into this world from supposedly nothing but a continuous dna project with a sinful nature. GOD designed the system and turned it on and HIS system produces sinners by the billions. How can it be said HE is not responsible for our sinfulness?

Adam had no "propensity to sin" because he was created perfect. Adam's choice was actually against his nature, a deliberate and premediated decision to sin. From the moment he made that choice however he lost his perfect nature and his children would be born damaged, THEY would be born with a propensity to sin.

God designed a system by which perfect life could be passed on from father to child. It was never Jehovah's intention that imperfection be passed on from father to child. God is not responsible for the fact that the first father (Adam) dropped the ball, deliberately corrupting the process for himself and his children. God is not responsible because he created Adam with free will. With free will comes responsibility, that's what free will *is*, the freedom to choose and be responsible for one's choices.

So, all humans are born (come into existence) with a sinful nature (a propensity to sin), its not our fault... its not God's either; its Adam's fault.

ROMANS 5:12 - NWT
That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men ...

JW