Honoring this Incarnation

[Dimmesdale]

I honor this incarnation. I honor this body that has been given me.

I honor relative existence, and all that it entails, including suffering.

I honor duality, the play of opposites, the great drama of terrestrial life.

I honor my finitude, and my relationship to the Christ, who is none other than my own Highest Self.

I am both Christ and not-Christ. I am both God and creature. I am the One and the Many. Both servant and Ruler.

I am Siva. Being Itself. In it's Unborn, Unmanifest, and Unadulterated Splendour.

At the same moment, I am an atom of dust beneath the feet of Visnu, in Glorious Submission.

I am One with The Incomprehensible Allah, who is Mystery Itself, and under Whose Command and Sway I live my life.

I am the Ultimate Sunyata, the Essence of which can never be penned....

I am the Penultimate I AM, the Beyond of which cannot be either stated or comprehended.

I AM without limits.

"I" - the First Name of God....

[Divine Insight]

I totally agree with this sentiment.

I've been working on a spiritual ritual based on Earth, Air, Fire and Water as representing the four fundamental elements of being. I've been refining this ritual over the years allowing insight to come to me naturally as the ritual evolves. It has become quite complex, but to keep things sure I have realized that all four of these spiritual elements end with how they are being incarnated into this physical world through our being. We are the incarnation of all of these facets of spirituality.

At the end of the ritual I have a chant that evolved from thinking about the seven chakras as being focal points of various facets of spiritual elements.

The final chant goes like this:

I AM,...
I AM the vision and the artistry
I AM the compassion and the empathy
I AM the love and foundation incarnate.

Some people see this ritual and think that I'm somehow being arrogant in claiming to be all of these things, like as if I am the source of all these things. Well, I AM, but only for me. They are the source of these spiritual qualities too. So they should be performing this chant as well to remind themselves of what they are.

If we don't become the vision, artistry, compassion, empathy, love and foundation of incarnation, then who will?

Life is what we make it to be sure.

So we are the ones who create all these things. And, of course, we could create blindness, horror, pain, ignorance, selfishness, etc., too. But the whole point of this ritual is to focus on what we want to create, not what we don't want to create.

The ritual itself creates nothing (save for perhaps artistry and vision), but the point of the ritual is not to create these things during the ritual, but rather to remind us that this is our purpose in this life. The ritual reminds us of what we should be focused on creating (incarnating). We are the creators to be sure. For good or bad.

[Dimmesdale]

I totally agree with this sentiment.

Why thank you.

I've been working on a spiritual ritual based on Earth, Air, Fire and Water as representing the four fundamental elements of being. I've been refining this ritual over the years allowing insight to come to me naturally as the ritual evolves. It has become quite complex, but to keep things sure I have realized that all four of these spiritual elements end with how they are being incarnated into this physical world through our being. We are the incarnation of all of these facets of spirituality.

Everyone has some rituals, I think. Even if it's just routine. Even dull, humdrum routines have some meaning. They give shape to our lives.

Besides these four elements there is also THE FIFTH ELEMENT (good movie, btw) which is ether, or spirit. Something very subtle.

I think we have incarnated upon this earth with a certain mission or goal, for a purpose that we only dimly perceive for the most part.

At the end of the ritual I have a chant that evolved from thinking about the seven chakras as being focal points of various facets of spiritual elements.

I am not very well versed in this bit of lore regarding the chakras. I do believe Seven is an important number however, signifying completion among other things.

The final chant goes like this:

I AM,...
I AM the vision and the artistry
I AM the compassion and the empathy
I AM the love and foundation incarnate.

In a sense we are some of these abstract concepts, in other ways they are merely attributes of who we are. I do believe though that we are all LOVE in its very essence.

Some people see this ritual and think that I'm somehow being arrogant in claiming to be all of these things, like as if I am the source of all these things. Well, I AM, but only for me. They are the source of these spiritual qualities too. So they should be performing this chant as well to remind themselves of what they are.

One can be arrogant by shirking his responsibility to be "real" and "down to earth" regarding his or her earthly incarnation, but if one is sincere and he says these things there shouldn't be a problem.

If we don't become the vision, artistry, compassion, empathy, love and foundation of incarnation, then who will?

It is indeed our responsibility to do the most loving thing in any circumstance, and that includes the call to grow.

Life is what we make it to be sure.

So we are the ones who create all these things. And, of course, we could create blindness, horror, pain, ignorance, selfishness, etc., too. But the whole point of this ritual is to focus on what we want to create, not what we don't want to create.

I don't fully agree that we can create anything at all that we want. There is a Script to life that has already been written and the things which are bound to happen will happen do what we may... But we are free in terms of what our attitude is regarding events, and this informs our actions and
our wills.

The ritual itself creates nothing (save for perhaps artistry and vision), but the point of the ritual is not to create these things during the ritual, but rather to remind us that this is our purpose in this life. The ritual reminds us of what we should be focused on creating (incarnating). We are the creators to be sure. For good or bad.

We are creators to be sure indeed. But we also answer to the call of the Great Creator.

[Divine Insight]

Besides these four elements there is also THE FIFTH ELEMENT (good movie, btw) which is ether, or spirit. Something very subtle.

Yes many people recognize the spirit as the fifth element. However, I don't view the spirit in that way. It's not like the other elements as the other elements are a facet of what we are. But spirit is what we are. In that sense spirit is not an element, but rather it's the very essence of what we are. It's not an element we shape, its the entity that shapes elements. And we are it. This is true whether the world is secular, pantheistic, or monotheistic. We would still be the entity that shapes our behavior and perceptions.

I don't fully agree that we can create anything at all that we want. There is a Script to life that has already been written and the things which are bound to happen will happen do what we may... But we are free in terms of what our attitude is regarding events, and this informs our actions and
our wills.

If there were a Script that had already been written then there would be no such thing as free will and we would be nothing more than pawns in a play. Marionette dolls on strings pulled by the Script.

So I don't personally believe that there exists a Script. I believe we actually have free will. I will confess that this is indeed a "belief" and not something I know for certain. Actually I'm open to the possibility that we have no free will. In fact, if we have free will then I guess I have reason to be quite proud of how I have conducted myself using my free will choices. So if our will is free, that means that I am fully responsible for who I am. For me personally this would be a very good thing indeed. So good, that I even question whether it's actually true. It's more likely that I just turned out to be a good person by fate and really had no choice in the matter. But yeah, it would be great if I could lay claim to being responsible for who I am. I'll gladly embrace that reality if true.

The ritual itself creates nothing (save for perhaps artistry and vision), but the point of the ritual is not to create these things during the ritual, but rather to remind us that this is our purpose in this life. The ritual reminds us of what we should be focused on creating (incarnating). We are the creators to be sure. For good or bad.

We are creators to be sure indeed. But we also answer to the call of the Great Creator.

I thought you were a Pantheist? The idea of a Great Creator is a monotheistic idea not a pantheistic idea. Especially if you are thinking that the Great Creator had written a Script of how things should unfold. That's very monotheistic thinking. One that brings free will into question for sure.

[Dimmesdale]

Besides these four elements there is also THE FIFTH ELEMENT (good movie, btw) which is ether, or spirit. Something very subtle.

Yes many people recognize the spirit as the fifth element. However, I don't view the spirit in that way. It's not like the other elements as the other elements are a facet of what we are. But spirit is what we are. In that sense spirit is not an element, but rather it's the very essence of what we are. It's not an element we shape, its the entity that shapes elements. And we are it. This is true whether the world is secular, pantheistic, or monotheistic. We would still be the entity that shapes our behavior and perceptions.

Good point. I don't feel as though I have to add anything here, though I could.

I don't fully agree that we can create anything at all that we want. There is a Script to life that has already been written and the things which are bound to happen will happen do what we may... But we are free in terms of what our attitude is regarding events, and this informs our actions and
our wills.

If there were a Script that had already been written then there would be no such thing as free will and we would be nothing more than pawns in a play. Marionette dolls on strings pulled by the Script.

That is precisely what I do not believe, and if I could only believe in a linear, merely mechanical version of determinism, then I would reject such a belief. We are not merely the outcomes of impersonal chemicals in the brain or even concatenations of past events in our lives. I believe that when we will something, that willing springs from the Self, though it may be covered over or "colored" by other factors. The reason it is already written is because time does not ultimately exist. Yet, with respect to our life choices, they can only happen in the present which is "Now."

So I don't personally believe that there exists a Script. I believe we actually have free will. I will confess that this is indeed a "belief" and not something I know for certain. Actually I'm open to the possibility that we have no free will. In fact, if we have free will then I guess I have reason to be quite proud of how I have conducted myself using my free will choices.

I have no doubt, due to personal experience, that there does exist a Script. Otherwise I would have to chalk up to mere coincidence the many highly serendipitous things which have occurred and are yet occurring in life and I would argue, Everyone's Life. There is ultimately only one Will and that Will is God's, and God cannot be determined by anything extraneous to Himself. Yet in the context of time that Will is Concretized and Solidifies into the form of Finality and Matter and Space-Time, not to mention Individuality and Ego-life.

[quote="Divine InsightSo if our will is free, that means that I am fully responsible for who I am. For me personally this would be a very good thing indeed. So good, that I even question whether it's actually true. It's more likely that I just turned out to be a good person by fate and really had no choice in the matter. But yeah, it would be great if I could lay claim to being responsible for who I am. I'll gladly embrace that reality if true. [/quote]

We all possess a spark of freedom, like sparks in a fire. However, this free will is covered over by smoke (what we refer to as fate or dull causality). The more we choose on the basis of Reason and the Good and Conform ourselves to Truth and become Aware of Who We ALWAYS WERE/ARE, thus arriving at Choicelessness. But this consummation only happens at the very end of the process, I gather.

[quote="Divine Insight

We are creators to be sure indeed. But we also answer to the call of the Great Creator.[/quote]

I thought you were a Pantheist? The idea of a Great Creator is a monotheistic idea not a pantheistic idea. Especially if you are thinking that the Great Creator had written a Script of how things should unfold. That's very monotheistic thinking. One that brings free will into question for sure.[/quote]

I believe there are Distinctions even at the level of Ultimate Reality. Go back to the fire analogy. Everything is fire, but there are distinctions in the way that that fire exists. There is the Fire as a whole and there are Sparks. Our individual identities are the Sparks, but the Fire is the complete Whole, which we also are since we are the fire.

I think the Gaudiya Vaishnava doctrine of "Achintya Bhed Abheda Tattva"(INCONCEIVABLE SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE) is one of the most profound ideas and I subscribe to it as reconciling Monism/Pantheism with Traditional Theism......

PEACE!

[jgh7]

How are you both Christ and not-Christ? Are you referring to Jesus in this regard? How are you God?

I know if you make a crazy enough contradiction then it gets labelled as profound. But really, explain to a simple boy like myself exactly what you mean.

[Dimmesdale]

How are you both Christ and not-Christ? Are you referring to Jesus in this regard? How are you God?

I know if you make a crazy enough contradiction then it gets labelled as profound. But really, explain to a simple boy like myself exactly what you mean.

It sounds like a radical claim, and it is, but I believe it can be defended logically, at least up to a point.

In a nutshell, I can say that I am both Christ and not-Christ, because there are two "I" thoughts/beings which we can simultaneously identify with. There is the Universal I, which is pure consciousness, and which is identical with Christ's I AM. This sense of I is beyond the mind and transcends the body, and every living thing is It as it's Ultimate Self.

I say "it's" Self because, indeed, there is a second "I" thought which is in the mind and asserts itself as the ego, in contradistinction to Christ's I AM. This sense of "I" appears individual and is distinct from everything else, existing not as pure spirit but as an ego, via the mind.

When I say that I am not Christ it is the same as me identifying with my typical role as a human being in the world: as a citizen, a son, a father, a mail man, and so forth. These all constitute for all intents and purposes my PRACTICAL IDENTITY in-the-world.

However, when it comes down to my Identity beyond the mind/body construct, as pure consciousness, this also asserts itself as "I" but not in the same manner as my practical identity.

In my view everyone has this duality within them, even Christ Himself. Though for great beings like Christ, they have so effaced (or amended) the personal "I" that only the light of Pure Being shines through them. Like a window without any haze.

At the same time, I believe that even after enlightenment we do not completely get rid of our practical identity. Some aspect, some play, remains even in the end, final State.

Hope that helps, and if it doesn't, hopefully I can try again.

[Divine Insight]

How are you both Christ and not-Christ? Are you referring to Jesus in this regard? How are you God?

I know if you make a crazy enough contradiction then it gets labelled as profound. But really, explain to a simple boy like myself exactly what you mean.

There are philosophical explanations based on pantheism about what Jesus himself meant when he said "I and the Father are one".

This is actually a Pantheistic statement common to many forms of Pantheism including many forms of Buddhism. It's simply an acknowledgement that there really is no difference between what we call "God" and the essence of what we actually are.

In fact, once this view is realized much of what has been attributed to Jesus makes sense. Jesus wasn't claiming to be the same as some imaginary supreme being. He was simply expressing a Pantheistic view.

He also said that whatever you do to your brothers you do to him. This simply means that all humans are basically the same pantheistic entity.

This won't make any sense to Christians who have been conditioned to think of "God" as an individual supreme ruler of the universe. They would then see any claim to be the same as Jesus as being a claim to be the ultimate Godhead authority figure.

But once you embrace pantheism, the idea that Jesus and the Father are one makes perfect sense. He also pointed out that even the Bible says, "Ye are Gods". So he was even pointing out that the Bible itself supports the pantheistic view.

Finally, what sense would it make for Jesus to say that whatever we do to our brothers we do to him outside of a paradigm of pantheism? It wouldn't make any sense at all. The idea that how we treat another human being is the same as treating an individual Godhead in the same way makes no sense.

So much of what has been attributed to having been said by Jesus actually only makes sense in Pantheism. This is no doubt why even his own Jewish disciples could not understand what he was saying because they most likely weren't thinking in terms of a pantheistic reality.

[jgh7]

[Replying to post 8 by Divine Insight]

Do Pantheists take the entire bible to be true? Do they take other religions to be true like Islam or Hindiusm? In general, are they the ones who just say every religion is true and points to pantheism?

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 8 by Divine Insight]

Do Pantheists take the entire bible to be true? Do they take other religions to be true like Islam or Hindiusm? In general, are they the ones who just say every religion is true and points to pantheism?

Just like all the demoninations of Christianity, there are many different views and ideas on Pantheism.

You need to realized that all religions are man-made ideas. None of them hold any absolute truths.

In Pantheism there is no egotistical authoritarian "Godhead" who passes judgements on everyone. Therefore it's not a matter of whether religions are true or not. What's important in pantheism is that people respect all life as being of equal value.

The Dalai Lama suggests that everyone should stick with the religion of their culture that they were raised in, or one that they feel comfortable with. This is not to say that these religions are true in all their dogmatic details. The important thing in pantheism is that we all respect each other and all living creatures. If your religion has you doing this, then that should be sufficient.

Obviously, there are those who use religion for disruptive and hateful purposes. I'm sure the Dalai Lama doesn't support that. He would most likely argue that those individuals are simply abusing their own religions.

I think too we should consider the words of Mahatma Ghandi. His famous quote: "I like your Christ, but I don't care much for your Christians". Clearly just because someone claims to be following a religious doctrine doesn't mean that they actually are following it.

In Pantheism the ultimate idea is "Karma". Karma is not a judgement. It really has nothing at all to do with morality in the Christian sense of the concept. Karma simply says that what you create is what you will ultimately experience. Whether that's "Good or Bad" is a judgement call the person who is experiencing life will make for themselves.

Note that in ALL these religious ideologies, things like mental illness, and genetic aberrations aren't accounted for, or taken into consideration. Obviously, a mentally ill person may not be responsible for their actions. In this case, even a spiritual Karma would not be "justified".

For secularists this is not a problem. In secularism nothing needs to be "justified". After all, if the universe is just a natural accident, then why should an accident need to be "just"?

The desire for ultimate "justice" and "fairness" is actually a major motivation for men to seek spiritual philosophies. They want to believe that justice will be served in the long run. That may be nothing more than wishful thinking on the part of humans.

One thing for sure, no religion appears to offer any true justice. Certainly not Christianity or any of the Abrahamic religions unless we believe that "justice" amounts to nothing more than appeasing the whims of some Godhead.

Even the Karma in Pantheism doesn't truly represent "justice", especially when mental illness and genetic aberrations are taken into consideration. But then again, Karma isn't supposed to represent "justice", it's simply supposed to be a natural attribute of reality.

In many ways it even makes sense to speak of "Secular Pantheism". All this does is view life itself as the essence of "God". Spinoza's God, if you want.

But you can tell from the way that theists argue for their religions that a concept of "justice" is foremost on their list of importance. They can't seem to accept that there might actually be no ultimate justice in reality. That's simply an unacceptable concept for many people. They simply can't stand the thought of "evil-doers" not having to "pay" for their actions. So this is a large part of what keeps theists demanding that there must be a God. Without a God, evil-doers won't face an ultimate judgment, and many theists can't tolerate that thought.

They demand that justice be served. Even though their religion ironically offers free amnesty to any evil-doers who are simple willing to ask for it.

Strange isn't it? They demand justice, but are simultaneously willing to forfeit justice in an instant if it means that someone has accepted their God.