For Non-trinitarians: Who is Jesus

[jgh7]

There have been tons of debates against the trinity, but I only just realized that I don't even know where non-trinitarians stand on who Jesus is. It's pretty simple on the trinitarian side, only one option: Jesus is God. But for non-trinitarians who don't believe Jesus is God, there are numerous options. In another thread someone interpreted him as an archangel which I had never heard before. And then I just got to wondering how many other non-trinitarian interpretations there are.

If you're a non-trinitarian, what are your beliefs about Jesus? Was he only a man? Was he an angel? Was he somewhere in between man and angel? Maybe somewhere in between angel and God? Is he all-knowing and all-powerful? Did he exist from the very beginning? What does it mean for him to be God's son, is that any more special than the angels and us being sons of God? Basically give me your best description, not so much of who Jesus is, but more along the lines of what Jesus is if that makes sense to you.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by jgh7]

Here is the JEHOVAH'S WITNESS view.

Jesus is the Son of God. He was God's first creation and existed as a spirit in heaven with God for countless milleniums. He was sent to earth, to be born as a human being and has since returned to heaven to continue life as a mighty spirit being by his Father's side.

What does it mean for him to be God's son, is that any more special than the angels and us being sons of God?

• Yes, Jesus was the only being that was created directly by God alone. Everything and everyone else God created through (by means of) the son ("Jesus"). This is why Jesus alone is spoken of as God's only-begotten son. This cannot apply to any angels or humans. For more on this point please click here (post by Tigger2)

Did he exist from the very beginning?

• Jesus was the beginning, if by "beginning" you mean the beginning of all God's acts of creation. The bible speaks of Jesus as being "the firstborn of all creation". For more on this point [please click here

Was he only a man?

• When Jesus was on earth he was 1000% human. If by "only" one means "there was nothing special or exceptional about Jesus" then no he wasn't "only" a man. He was absolutely exceptional and unique in the following five ways:
  • - he was the only human that has ever lived that had a prehuman existence.
    
    - he was the only human that lived his entire life without committing a single sin in word, thought or deed; he was a perfect man.
    
    - he was the only human (with the exception of Adam) that was conceived without the input of a human father.
    
    - he was the only human God gave such exceptional power and authority to
    
    - he was the only human whose life had sufficient value to redeem mankind from sin and death so humans can one day live forever thanks to his sacrificial death.

If by "only" one means, was he 100% human or was he some kind of "demigod" half human half alien, then no. he was "only" a man.

Was he an angel? No, Jesus was a human (see above)

Was he somewhere in between man and angel?

• I don't know what that would mean. There are only two types of intelligent beings spirits and humans. Almighty God (JEHOVAH) is a spirit. You and I are humans. When on earth Jesus was a human being. When he returned to heaven he regained his life as a spirit. There are not different "types" of spirits (as in different spirit "life forms") there is only rank, seniority and authority. Angels are spirits that deliver messages. If God were to deliver a message he would be "an angel" just as a human that delivers letters is "a postman" A postman isn't a separate life form, the term "Postman" is simply describing the function of a human. If Prince Charles were to start delivering the post he could be described as "A Prince" and "an angel". The term "angel" is simply describing the function. For more on this topic click here
  
  NOTE Although as a group angels rank lower than other spirits and certainly lower than the spirit YHWH (God), since the term "angel" is descriptive of function ("what is done"), any spirit that (including Jesus) that delivers a message can be described as an "angel".
  
  
  Maybe somewhere in between angel and God? As I explained there are not life forms "between angels and God" but spirits (like humans) have rank and position. Jesus (since his death and resurrection to life as a spirit in heaven) is presently the most powerful spirit being in existence, second in rank and authority to nobody but Almighty God YHWH (Jehovah) himself. He is far superior to "the angels" as a group, indeed he is described in Daniel as the Archangel Michael (arch meaning chief (head) of the angels). For more on this topic please click here

Is he [Jesus] all-knowing and all-powerful?

• No, only YHWH (Jehovah) the Father is "all knowing an all powerful (Almighty). For more on this topic pleas click here

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SIN , PERFECTION , and ...THE RANSOM

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by jgh7]

Great topic, and fair questions.

You could ask those those questions of the first Christians, Jesus first disciples as well. Arguably, they did not see Jesus as God. James' community, the Ebionites, the community which produced the Didache etc, saw Jesus as the Messiah, but did not consider him to be "God".

For me, Jesus is my "Rabbi", teacher. Compleletly human. A Jewish mystic, so completely filled with the Spirit or God that he became a veritible reflection of God on earth. In that sense, (and only in that sense) they who have seen Jesus have indeed seen the Father.

"God"? No, the LORD YHVH alone is God. (Isaiah 45.5)

"Savior"? No, There is no Savior besides the LORD YHVH. (Isaiah 43.11) who forgives for His name's sake. (Psalm 79.9) and the Glory of His name.

"Archangel" I see no reason to believe that.

Pre-existent "Word" of God? Logos? "First born of all Creation by whom all things were made". Far-fetched, imo.

"Son of God"? Yes, but Jesus is our brother, we are all children of God. Jesus taught us to call God "our Father".

"Messiah"? I try to keep an open mind about that, but I doubt it. He did not usher in the Messianic age the first time around, and was wrong about the timing of his "2nd time around". (Matthew 16.28)

"Prophet". I think that's close, as in being a mouthpiece for God on earth. The culmination, imo of a line of Jewish prophets. But if Jesus actually said the things attributed to him by Matthew and others, (16.28) seems that would disqualify him as a "Prophet" per se.

So for me, that leaves Jesus as my Spiritual leader, in a very similar way as Mohammed is the spiritual leader of Islam and Muslims.

Jesus is the embodiment of ethical monotheism, the personification of Judaism for the masses.

Anything more, I doubt very much that Jesus claimed for himself. The lofty titles which have become associated with him, I believe those are titles that other human beings have bestowed upon him in a process of mytholigization. That would included the Gospel Evangelists, (especially John) Paul, and the leaders of the Trinitarian Church.

[onewithhim]

There have been tons of debates against the trinity, but I only just realized that I don't even know where non-trinitarians stand on who Jesus is. It's pretty simple on the trinitarian side, only one option: Jesus is God. But for non-trinitarians who don't believe Jesus is God, there are numerous options. In another thread someone interpreted him as an archangel which I had never heard before. And then I just got to wondering how many other non-trinitarian interpretations there are.

If you're a non-trinitarian, what are your beliefs about Jesus? Was he only a man? Was he an angel? Was he somewhere in between man and angel? Maybe somewhere in between angel and God? Is he all-knowing and all-powerful? Did he exist from the very beginning? What does it mean for him to be God's son, is that any more special than the angels and us being sons of God? Basically give me your best description, not so much of who Jesus is, but more along the lines of what Jesus is if that makes sense to you.

I haven't read further posts yet on this thread, but I'm sure I'll agree with JW. Jesus was not "only" a man that was born like other men. He was 100% human, but the differences are many. He was perfect, was born by means of a miracle on earth, and never committed a sin. He was the only human being that had the credentials to give his life in exchange for all of mankind's lives. He did this 2,000 years ago, and now waits for his Father to say that it is time to go and rid the earth of evil.

He existed before his earthly life, for untold billions of years, working with and learning from his Father, Jehovah. (John 5:19) All things were created through him (I Corinthians 8:5,6) with power given to him by his Father. He had a vast store of knowledge that impressed people who heard him, them saying that they never heard a man speak like he did. No wonder....he created everything.

Jesus is simply God's Son. (John 10:36) This is plainly taught in the Bible. He never claimed to be God, and if a person can get that spurious idea out of their heads they can see clearly that the Scriptures teach that he is subservient to God, relies on God, was raised back to life by God, and went back to heaven to sit at God's right hand. He is our King and rules over a real government. That is what God's Kingdom is---a real government. Jesus will reign over the earth after expunging the earth of all wickedness. Because of him we will be able to live in Paradise on Earth forever. (Psalm 37:9,11,29)

[Monta]

[Replying to post 1 by jgh7]

"It's pretty simple on the trinitarian side, only one option: Jesus is God. But for non-trinitarians who don't believe Jesus is God, there are numerous options."

Unless I am terrribly wrong, it is the other way around.
Trinitarians believe that three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God.

I am non-trintarian and I believe that God is One who descended as Divine Truth
in person of the Son of God Jesus,
Mary brought his physical body into the world while his soul was Divine Life Force, Jehovah; as He said, I come from the Father.

Interesting that He never acknowledged or addressed Mary as a mother.

[polonius]

Keep in mind, if Jesus is a created being (not eternal like God) he cannot be "coequal" with God, one of the requirements for a member of the Trinity.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 1 by jgh7]

this is a classic question for discussion. it was 300 years before the church fathers and emperor Constantine decided he was, God and Man somehow one. The question we ask should be who are we? What does it mean to be a human being? Jesus was a human being. The question rather is not what it mean to be one with God but what it mean to be a true human being.
Saying Jesus is God and Man is a logical impossibility unless we are saying all humanity is created to be God and Man.
but we miss the point when we say only Jesus is God , for God created them humans male and female in his image. Jesus was the bridegroom who never found his bride.

[marco]

Saying Jesus is God and Man is a logical impossibility unless we are saying all humanity is created to be God and Man.

Many things to do with God are logical impossibilities. God manifesting himself by becoming temporarily incarnate is something humans can't logically do, but maybe gods can. Zeus became many things in his colourful career.

Jesus was the bridegroom who never found his bride.

I think it would be premature, then, to call him a bridegroom if there was no bride in evidence.

It seems he was a very good preacher - that's all. He was deified as a mark of respect, like Augustus, but nobody today thinks Augustus was divine though he was once part of a trinity - or triumvirate.

[JehovahsWitness]

Interesting that He never acknowledged or addressed Mary as a mother.

I think that is going beyond scripture to say that. All we can say for sure is that there are not records of him calling Mary "mother" whether he did or did not we cannot say.

That said he most certainly recognised her authority as a child because the bible says Jesus "continued subject to them", namely Joseph and Mary. Further as an adult he recognized his responsibility to provide for her as Mary was the only woman for whom Jesus is recorded as him making provisions for after his (Jesus') death. We can ask why he did that for her if he didn't recognize the family tie between them.

That said, Jesus clearly didn't give Mary undue recognitioon, nor did he play a prominent role in the development of Christianity; I believe worshipping Mary as "The Queen of Heaven" is entirely inappropriate.



JW

[Monta]

[Replying to post 8 by marco]


"I think it would be premature, then, to call him a bridegroom if there was no bride in evidence. "

The bride is at least 2000 ys old.