There have been tons of debates against the trinity, but I only just realized that I don't even know where non-trinitarians stand on who Jesus is. It's pretty simple on the trinitarian side, only one option: Jesus is God. But for non-trinitarians who don't believe Jesus is God, there are numerous options. In another thread someone interpreted him as an archangel which I had never heard before. And then I just got to wondering how many other non-trinitarian interpretations there are.
If you're a non-trinitarian, what are your beliefs about Jesus? Was he only a man? Was he an angel? Was he somewhere in between man and angel? Maybe somewhere in between angel and God? Is he all-knowing and all-powerful? Did he exist from the very beginning? What does it mean for him to be God's son, is that any more special than the angels and us being sons of God? Basically give me your best description, not so much of who Jesus is, but more along the lines of what Jesus is if that makes sense to you.
For Non-trinitarians: Who is Jesus
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2timothy316
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Re: For Non-trinitarians: Who is Jesus
Post #41So lets just make all of this clear, is Jesus equal to Almighty God or not?EBA wrote:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (KJV)
Since I subscribe to that translation, I don’t see where Q3 and Q4 are relevant.
Peace.
Re: For Non-trinitarians: Who is Jesus
Post #42[Replying to post 1 by jgh7]
The answer to the question: "Who is Jesus," from a non-Trinitarian perspective is lined with several pitfalls. One of them would be: What will be accepted as evidence? If the answer is the bible, then asking a non-Trinitarian to gather support from writings, which leans towards the Trinity belief system would seem to create a catch-22 situation for the non-Trinitarian. So, the only other option is to give an opinion, but this holds very little "actual" value as evidence.
So, I'll give my non-Trinitarian opinion, but use the (leaning) Trinitarian writings of the N.T. for areas of support:
The book of Matthew gives us three distinct terms, which tells us who the Messiah or the Christ is: "The Son of God, The Son of Man and The Son of David."
Therefore:
The Son of David refers to Jesus' linage among the human race. It also shows his claim to "kingship" and the promise given to King David that his descendant would be the Messiah, which is known as: The Davidic covenant. The N.T. shows this linage in two ways: Firstly, through Mary, his biological mother (Matthew 1) and legally through his step-father Joseph, in Luke 3.
The term: Son of Man affirms his humanity. This can be referenced in Daniel 7, which supports the idea of an exalted figure, not just a human figure. Interesting enough, the term Son of Man was the Christ's favorite self-designation.
The title: Son of God refers to the "divinity" or the indwelling of the divine nature, which is possessed by the Christ. The first few chapters of Matthew outlines how Mary (a virgin) became pregnant through the power of God or God's Spirit. The N.T. gives us examples where others also referred to Jesus as the Son of God: the disciples (Matt. 14:22-33, 16:13-16), angels (Matt. 8:28-29), a Roman centurion and those with him (Matt. 27:54) and the Christ, himself (John 10:34-36). Even, the Supreme Being states that His Son is held in the highest-esteem and is well pleasing to Him (Mark 1:9-11, Matt. 17:5 and 2 Peter 1:17-18).
However, there are some who would claim that the title: sons of God can be used by other beings, such as angels and human beings. While, this is technically correct, it is only used in a general sense, with no direct distinction to a begotten of God. When, the term: Son of God is used, it's used as a proper noun and is specific to only the Christ or the only begotten of God and no one else.
So, from my non-Trinitarian opinion, the Christ came to be around 6 B.C., being born of a human woman and by the power of the Supreme Being. He did not preexist, nor is he the God of the O.T. He possessed both the human nature and divine nature. He is the Messiah, king, prophet and high priest foretold by those of old. He was the first to be resurrected to eternal life and will return to restore the Kingdom of God on this earth, at a time, the Supreme Being has determined.
The answer to the question: "Who is Jesus," from a non-Trinitarian perspective is lined with several pitfalls. One of them would be: What will be accepted as evidence? If the answer is the bible, then asking a non-Trinitarian to gather support from writings, which leans towards the Trinity belief system would seem to create a catch-22 situation for the non-Trinitarian. So, the only other option is to give an opinion, but this holds very little "actual" value as evidence.
So, I'll give my non-Trinitarian opinion, but use the (leaning) Trinitarian writings of the N.T. for areas of support:
The book of Matthew gives us three distinct terms, which tells us who the Messiah or the Christ is: "The Son of God, The Son of Man and The Son of David."
Therefore:
The Son of David refers to Jesus' linage among the human race. It also shows his claim to "kingship" and the promise given to King David that his descendant would be the Messiah, which is known as: The Davidic covenant. The N.T. shows this linage in two ways: Firstly, through Mary, his biological mother (Matthew 1) and legally through his step-father Joseph, in Luke 3.
The term: Son of Man affirms his humanity. This can be referenced in Daniel 7, which supports the idea of an exalted figure, not just a human figure. Interesting enough, the term Son of Man was the Christ's favorite self-designation.
The title: Son of God refers to the "divinity" or the indwelling of the divine nature, which is possessed by the Christ. The first few chapters of Matthew outlines how Mary (a virgin) became pregnant through the power of God or God's Spirit. The N.T. gives us examples where others also referred to Jesus as the Son of God: the disciples (Matt. 14:22-33, 16:13-16), angels (Matt. 8:28-29), a Roman centurion and those with him (Matt. 27:54) and the Christ, himself (John 10:34-36). Even, the Supreme Being states that His Son is held in the highest-esteem and is well pleasing to Him (Mark 1:9-11, Matt. 17:5 and 2 Peter 1:17-18).
However, there are some who would claim that the title: sons of God can be used by other beings, such as angels and human beings. While, this is technically correct, it is only used in a general sense, with no direct distinction to a begotten of God. When, the term: Son of God is used, it's used as a proper noun and is specific to only the Christ or the only begotten of God and no one else.
So, from my non-Trinitarian opinion, the Christ came to be around 6 B.C., being born of a human woman and by the power of the Supreme Being. He did not preexist, nor is he the God of the O.T. He possessed both the human nature and divine nature. He is the Messiah, king, prophet and high priest foretold by those of old. He was the first to be resurrected to eternal life and will return to restore the Kingdom of God on this earth, at a time, the Supreme Being has determined.
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Checkpoint
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Re: For Non-trinitarians: Who is Jesus
Post #43[Replying to post 42 by FWI]
Is it within him, not just coming from outside?
How was/is it expressed?
As he did not preexist, how does he have a divine nature?He did not preexist, nor is he the God of the O.T. He possessed both the human nature and divine nature.
Is it within him, not just coming from outside?
How was/is it expressed?
Re: For Non-trinitarians: Who is Jesus
Post #44Well, if I take your question at face value, then the answer is yes.2timothy316 wrote:
So lets just make all of this clear, is Jesus equal to Almighty God or not?
However, if by “Almighty God� you really mean “the Father� then the answer is no.
Re: For Non-trinitarians: Who is Jesus
Post #45[Replying to post 43 by Checkpoint]
The divine nature was provided by the Supreme Being, during the process used to give life to a human female egg, without the normal process of male/female copulation. This is why he is called the Son of God. Yet, to accept this concept we must be clear on: What is the divine nature? In 2 Peter 1:2-4, it is implied that the divine nature is the character of God.
The divine nature was/is within his being and is why he was sinless. This is where the remainder of human beings are separated from the Son of God (at this time). The bible tells us that many are called, but few are chosen. Those, which are chosen, do not have the divine nature within them, but upon them and is understood when the Son of God states that he will send the "helper" to guide or help those chosen. The only reason this help is required is that those chosen still sin. Paul made this concept clear in Romans 7:14-25. Hence, if the divine nature is within someone, there is no sin. So, for someone (other than the Son of God) to claim that they are without sin is blasphemy. This will only occur at the time of the resurrection, when the chosen are changed, during the Son of God's return to this earth.
For the Son of God, this was/is expressed by his actions, not just his words. For those chosen, it is a process of trusting in God (through the Son) to help in overcoming sin and accepting the truth of God.
checkpoint wrote:As he did not preexist, how does he have a divine nature?
The divine nature was provided by the Supreme Being, during the process used to give life to a human female egg, without the normal process of male/female copulation. This is why he is called the Son of God. Yet, to accept this concept we must be clear on: What is the divine nature? In 2 Peter 1:2-4, it is implied that the divine nature is the character of God.
checkpoint wrote:Is it within him, not just coming from outside?
The divine nature was/is within his being and is why he was sinless. This is where the remainder of human beings are separated from the Son of God (at this time). The bible tells us that many are called, but few are chosen. Those, which are chosen, do not have the divine nature within them, but upon them and is understood when the Son of God states that he will send the "helper" to guide or help those chosen. The only reason this help is required is that those chosen still sin. Paul made this concept clear in Romans 7:14-25. Hence, if the divine nature is within someone, there is no sin. So, for someone (other than the Son of God) to claim that they are without sin is blasphemy. This will only occur at the time of the resurrection, when the chosen are changed, during the Son of God's return to this earth.
checkpoint wrote:How was/is it expressed?
For the Son of God, this was/is expressed by his actions, not just his words. For those chosen, it is a process of trusting in God (through the Son) to help in overcoming sin and accepting the truth of God.
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2timothy316
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Re: For Non-trinitarians: Who is Jesus
Post #46The term 'Almighty', "having absolute power over all".EBA wrote:Well, if I take your question at face value, then the answer is yes.2timothy316 wrote:
So lets just make all of this clear, is Jesus equal to Almighty God or not?
However, if by “Almighty God� you really mean “the Father� then the answer is no.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/almighty
Are you suggesting that Jesus has this?
Re: For Non-trinitarians: Who is Jesus
Post #47Well, he has absolute power over any and everything you or I could ever care about:2timothy316 wrote: The term 'Almighty', "having absolute power over all".
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/almighty
Are you suggesting that Jesus has this?
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL POWER is GIVEN unto me in heaven and in earth. (Mat 28:18)
Now since that "power" was "given" then it makes perfect sense that the giver (Father) has more power than the receiver (Son) which is what we are told:
-my Father is greater than I. (Joh 14:28)
Christ is equal to his Father because his Father has given him that power, however, he has and always will be submissive to his God and Father:
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1Co 15:28)
Peace.
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Zog Has-fallen
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Re: For Non-trinitarians: Who is Jesus
Post #48[Replying to post 1 by jgh7]
Jesus is eternal like God but not coequal with God. Nevertheless, Jesus is so much like God, and was so highly exalted by God, that we are to regard His word as the word of God and His presence as God's presence.
Jesus is eternal like God but not coequal with God. Nevertheless, Jesus is so much like God, and was so highly exalted by God, that we are to regard His word as the word of God and His presence as God's presence.
