Wealth Redistribution

[ThePainefulTruth]

Socialists use compassion (a religious concept) as the reason to forcibly redistribute wealth. But I think that's more politics than compassion. If we're going to be uniform in our compassion, that redistribution would have to take place world wide. Is there anyone in the US, other than the voluntarily poor (drop outs) who wouldn't be giving up a major portion of their incomes to others outside the US.

The average income in the US is $27K*, which does not include government aid in the form of: housing, furniture, appliances, utilities, transportation, healthcare and food stamps, which could easily bump that up to $30K.

The average global income, $3K, does NOT usually include any of the above US benefits. So the average American would be redistributing in cash and benefits $27K, raising the global average to what, guessing $3.5K...OK $4K.

So now what, put it to a vote? Keep in mind that the vote must necessarily be worldwide. Democracy would truly be compassionate then, don't you think?

Wouldn't it be better to promote economic freedom (capitalism with legal oversight) around the world, which rising tide would raise all boats.

* Av. income for US by race:
Whites $31K
Asians $30K
Blacks $18K
Hispanics $15K[/code]

[TSGracchus]

...The "American way of life" could not be maintained by the world...

Indeed. According to google, if everyone lived the way Americans do, we would need 5 planet earths to provide the resources and dissipate the wastes. Clearly we do not have 5 planet earths, only one, and it makes sense (to me, anyway) to distribute the carrying capacity of the one Earth we do have along egalitarian lines. This might require some restraint among Americans, which is why I think they are not too keen on the idea of a 'fair' distribution of of the world's wealth, aka God's providence.

Best wishes, 2RM.

I have reason to suspect that it is not just Americans who need to learn restraint. The Chinese, for instance, are "developing" so very fast that the air in their major cities is sometimes nearly toxic. This is a human problem, not exclusive to any nationality or ethnic group.

[2ndRateMind]

[Replying to post 71 by TSGracchus]

Just so. Even we Europeans need 3 planet earths to sustain our lifestyles, if everyone were to reach our standard of living. We all need to get a great deal more clever about how we live, if we are not leave our children, and their children, a legacy of desolation.

However, I do not perceive, amongst Europeans, the same degree of ideological objection to this inconvenient reality as I do amongst Americans.

As for China; you will have to take the issue up with Xi Jinping; the people have little say in the matter.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[2ndRateMind]

So, for the sake of brevity, can we set "reasonable desires" to one side for the moment, and establish a list of what one would consider "biological needs"? We can then look at what constitutes work and what makes it available.

So, this is not that difficult. Biological needs are those needs one dies or deteriorates without; stuff like food, clean water, sanitation, climate appropriate clothing, secure shelter, and primary health care. If one's income for work done doesn't cover these basic essentials, then one is perfectly entitled to consider oneself exploited, given there is more than enough wealth in the world to provide everybody all of them.

Best wishes, 2RM

[bluethread]

So, for the sake of brevity, can we set "reasonable desires" to one side for the moment, and establish a list of what one would consider "biological needs"? We can then look at what constitutes work and what makes it available.

So, this is not that difficult. Biological needs are those needs one dies or deteriorates without; stuff like food, clean water, sanitation, climate appropriate clothing, shelter, and primary health care. If one's income for work done doesn't cover these basic essentials, then one is perfectly entitled to consider oneself exploited, given there is more than enough wealth in the world to provide everybody all of them.

Best wishes, 2RM

So, regardless of how much one works or whatever work one does, they are being exploited, if those things are not given to them? How does that work? If I mow your lawn and I need $1000 for medical expenses, how much must you pay me in order to not be exploitative?

[2ndRateMind]

So, for the sake of brevity, can we set "reasonable desires" to one side for the moment, and establish a list of what one would consider "biological needs"? We can then look at what constitutes work and what makes it available.

So, this is not that difficult. Biological needs are those needs one dies or deteriorates without; stuff like food, clean water, sanitation, climate appropriate clothing, shelter, and primary health care. If one's income for work done doesn't cover these basic essentials, then one is perfectly entitled to consider oneself exploited, given there is more than enough wealth in the world to provide everybody all of them.

Best wishes, 2RM

So, regardless of how much one works or whatever work one does, they are being exploited, if those things are not given to them? How does that work? If I mow your lawn and I need $1000 for medical expenses, how much must you pay me in order to not be exploitative?

(Annual biological needs cost[1]/total working hours in a year) * total hours spent mowing my lawn.

[1]including medical insurance as necessary.

So, I am saying that if one works, and earns one's way in the world, then the pay for that work should cover, at the very least, one's biological needs. And if it doesn't, one is being exploited.

I don't see why you might have a problem with this notion. Do you want people working for less money than it takes to keep them alive?

Best wishes, 2RM

[bluethread]

So, regardless of how much one works or whatever work one does, they are being exploited, if those things are not given to them? How does that work? If I mow your lawn and I need $1000 for medical expenses, how much must you pay me in order to not be exploitative?

(Annual biological needs cost[1]/total working hours in a year) * total hours spent mowing my lawn.

[1]including medical insurance as necessary.

So, I am saying that if one works, and earns one's way in the world, then the pay for that work should cover, at the very least, one's biological needs. And if it doesn't, one is being exploited.

I don't see why you might have a problem with this notion. Do you want people working for less money than it takes to keep them alive?

Best wishes, 2RM

There are a lot of variables there. How does one calculate the cost of "Annual biological needs"? How does one know the number of working hours in a year? Also, though I can know how many hours it took for the man to mow the lawn when he is done, that calculation incentivizes him to do it as slowly as possible. Why should I pay someone more for doing the job more slowly? That also does not take into account the quality of the job. Finally, how am I supposed to calculate all of this while standing out on my front porch? Is there an app for that? Personally, I don't want people working for less than it takes to keep them alive. I just don't see why I should have to do all of that calculating every time a purchase a good or service. Why shouldn't I just pay him the fee we agree to beforehand, based on his stated price and my assesment of the value of the service?

[Walterbl]

My belief is that at some point in the next decades, due to the exponential avance of technology, most of the world will indeed be able to enjoy a very high level of quality of life.

However, forced wealth redistribution is not the answer to that. It has never worked in the countries it has been carried out. Free market capitalism is the system that leads to higher economic growth overall.

[2ndRateMind]

So, regardless of how much one works or whatever work one does, they are being exploited, if those things are not given to them? How does that work? If I mow your lawn and I need $1000 for medical expenses, how much must you pay me in order to not be exploitative?

(Annual biological needs cost[1]/total working hours in a year) * total hours spent mowing my lawn.

[1]including medical insurance as necessary.

There are a lot of variables there. How does one calculate the cost of "Annual biological needs"? How does one know the number of working hours in a year?

So, I don't see how this formula varies in kind from the normal industrial cost pricing model:

(Total annual fixed costs + total annual variable costs + desired annual profit)/ number of widgets produced per year = price per widget.

Also, though I can know how many hours it took for the man to mow the lawn when he is done, that calculation incentivizes him to do it as slowly as possible.

On the contrary, since there is competition in a free market, and each individual tendering will want to offer to complete the job for the lowest price, the incentive is to do the job as quickly as possible.

And I am not saying you should perform the calculus every time you hire a gardener. Just that an approximate rendition of the formula is enough. People cannot live decently - anywhere - on less than $2 per day, which is the income of around one quarter of humanity. Whereas $16,000 a year or so per person is, if not generous, at least adequate in most places in the world. And globally affordable.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[2ndRateMind]

...However, forced wealth redistribution is not the answer to that. It has never worked in the countries it has been carried out. Free market capitalism is the system that leads to higher economic growth overall.

I think we have to decide whether economic growth is for the benefit of humanity, or whether humanity is for the benefit of economic growth.

If the former, then Scandinavian egalitarian economic policies offer a clue; their economic growth is not outstanding, and their tax rates are quite high, but so are their social welfare benefits, and the people there are rated happiest in a wide variety of opinion surveys.

If the latter, well, excuse me while I drop out of society, do festivals, join CND, and grow a hippy beard.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[bluethread]

There are a lot of variables there. How does one calculate the cost of "Annual biological needs"? How does one know the number of working hours in a year?

So, I don't see how this formula varies in kind from the normal industrial cost pricing model:

(Total annual fixed costs + total annual variable costs + desired annual profit)/ number of widgets produced per year = price per widget.

I am not a fan of statistical pricing, even from the cost side. It might be helpful in estimating an initial price. However, if people do not want to pay that much for a widget, it is not going to sell. That said, those are still difficult to determine on a case by case basis on one's front porch.

Also, though I can know how many hours it took for the man to mow the lawn when he is done, that calculation incentivizes him to do it as slowly as possible.

On the contrary, since there is competition in a free market, and each individual tendering will want to offer to complete the job for the lowest price, the incentive is to do the job as quickly as possible.

But, the market isn't free, in your scenerio. You have stated that if I pay someone less than the amount determined by your calculation, I have taken advantage of them. So, if price is the only consideration, how do I decide who will mow my lawn? Also, what about me? What if I can't afford to get my lawn mowed and put food on the table. What then? Is the guy with the lawnmower obligated to mow my lawn for nothing, so I can have dinner? When one starts implementing wage and price controls, things get really messing very quickly.

And I am not saying you should perform the calculus every time you hire a gardener. Just that an approximate rendition of the formula is enough. People cannot live decently - anywhere - on less than $2 per day, which is the income of around one quarter of humanity. Whereas $16,000 a year per person or so is, if not generous, at least adequate in most places in the world. And globally affordable.

Again, is there an app for that? How do I approximate what it cost for this guy who is going to mow my lawn to live? You appear to be good at comparing numbers, but I am not hearing much regarding practical solutions.