Apologetics Arguments You're Unlikely to Hear

[Jagella]

It will be a cold day in Hawaii before any apologist uses these arguments:

The Argument From I Can Demonstrate a Miracle
Come on all you James-Randi skeptics! God exists and so does his magic, and I can show you right now. Bring on all of those sick and crippled--step right up you amputees (pun intended ). Even the dead aren't too tough to raise. In front of the cameras and the skeptics God will use me to prove his miraculous powers over sickness, death, and credit-card debt.

The Argument From I Have God's Knowledge
God talks to me just like he spoke to Moses, Isaiah, and Jesus. And just like all of them, I can predict the future and tell you everything about the present. I can tell you your birthday, your billing information, the name of your first-grade teacher, and even what lottery ticket will win you the jackpot!

The Argument From Try Reading The Bible
Read the Bible! If you don't think it's the most wonderful, wisdom-filled, moral book you've ever read, then I will accept whatever conclusion you have come to about it. That's right--I won't argue about your judgment about the Bible. I won't deny what you say about it, and I will respect what you have to say. I will recognize that you made a good-faith effort to understand it. You've read it, so obviously you know what it says.

The Argument From Try Christianity
I believe that Christianity is God's revelation to man and how he wants us to live morally and with wisdom. So I'm asking you to try it. In addition to reading the Bible, I ask you to try praying and attending church services. If you don't see supernatural wisdom and morality among Christians, then don't believe it! But I'm confident you will really see how God works with his people. I'm sure you'll see just how loving and moral his chosen are and how much it will bless your life. If that doesn't happen, then go right ahead and leave the church. I will respect your effort to give it a go. I will accept anything you conclude about it, and I will respect you as an honest and open-minded person. Heck--I'll even refund any money you tithed or donated to any church or Christian organization!

There's many more such arguments apologists wouldn't touch with a ten-foot cross, so can you think of any?

[Jagella]

I did both. My conclusions are that the Bible is a pack of lies, and church is meant to drain your wallet.

Drain you wallet?

Did you attend a church which insisted on the "tithe"? Not all churches preach the "tithe" or compel people to give 10% of their income to the church.

All churches and other religious groups get their money from donors. If I'm wrong about this, then name one that doesn't get money from somebody. It's so utterly stupid to claim that you worship an all-mighty god only to give money to the people who told you that! It's got SCAM written all over it.

[peterk]

All churches and other religious groups get their money from donors. If I'm wrong about this, then name one that doesn't get money from somebody. It's so utterly stupid to claim that you worship an all-mighty god only to give money to the people who told you that! It's got SCAM written all over it.

Jagella, in my opinion this comment shows an unwillingness to understand the issue fairly. Of course Christians give money to churches. I'm one of them. There was also a time when I gave money to my local squash club. I did it because the benefits I received from belonging to the squash club made it worthwhile to hand over the money. Later my changed circumstances meant I couldn't play squash, so I stopped paying. Both I and the club were happy with the arrangement, both before and after membership. Everything was above board, including an annual meeting and audited accounts.

In my local church it's the same. I give because I get benefits. If I didn't give, the church would not be able to provide those benefits. It's my free will choice, and the church is up front about all financial matters. We have a qualified accountant in charge of our financial affairs, and audited accounts are presented at annual meetings and available on enquiry at any time.

We try to promote the issue of financial giving in a balanced way. We certainly talk about money, just as we talk about worship or prayer or workplace ethics. We do this because money management is a natural part of life, along with everything else. We encourage those who call this church home to partner with it in financial and other ways. We actively discourage giving from visitors, because they are our guests and we should be hospitable to them.

Whether we have pitched our processes fairly is always an important question, and we try to be open and improve where we need to. But talking about scams for "all churches" says to me that you're just not willing to listen fairly to another point of view.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 32 by peterk]

So what benefits are you paying your church for?

So I've thought about another apologetics argument you're unlikely to hear:

The Argument From You Get What You Pay The Church For
Yes, the church wants your money. The church must have it after all. But you will get your money's worth! There are amazing benefits that Christianity can provide and at a very reasonable cost to you. It's even tax-deductible. If you doubt that we are led by an all-powerful god, then test us by paying up. TIMITS loves to help people who help him. He is known to bless anybody who gives him money. So give us your money, we'll give it to TIMITS, and then enjoy your miracle!

[peterk]

[Replying to post 32 by peterk]

So what benefits are you paying your church for?

If you'd stopped there, I would have thought: "Well done Jagella, you've asked a simple, neutral fact finding question. It shows you actually want to hear from someone else."

So I've thought about another apologetics argument you're unlikely to hear:

The Argument From You Get What You Pay The Church For
Yes, the church wants your money. The church must have it after all. But you will get your money's worth! There are amazing benefits that Christianity can provide and at a very reasonable cost to you. It's even tax-deductible. If you doubt that we are led by an all-powerful god, then test us by paying up. TIMITS loves to help people who help him. He is known to bless anybody who gives him money. So give us your money, we'll give it to TIMITS, and then enjoy your miracle!

But then you spoiled it all with the unnecessary follow up.

Do you actually want to have a real discussion? I'm happy to listen to your honest beliefs and your personal stories, whatever they may be. I'm happy to answer your honest questions, whatever they may be. I will do my best to show respect to you at all points. But in turn I expect the same respect from you.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 32 by peterk]

So what benefits are you paying your church for?

If you'd stopped there, I would have thought: "Well done Jagella, you've asked a simple, neutral fact finding question. It shows you actually want to hear from someone else."

So I've thought about another apologetics argument you're unlikely to hear:

The Argument From You Get What You Pay The Church For
Yes, the church wants your money. The church must have it after all. But you will get your money's worth! There are amazing benefits that Christianity can provide and at a very reasonable cost to you. It's even tax-deductible. If you doubt that we are led by an all-powerful god, then test us by paying up. TIMITS loves to help people who help him. He is known to bless anybody who gives him money. So give us your money, we'll give it to TIMITS, and then enjoy your miracle!

But then you spoiled it all with the unnecessary follow up.

Do you actually want to have a real discussion? I'm happy to listen to your honest beliefs and your personal stories, whatever they may be. I'm happy to answer your honest questions, whatever they may be. I will do my best to show respect to you at all points. But in turn I expect the same respect from you.

Hmmm. Well, if I was a scammer, then it would be hard for me to want a scam that works better than religion. Not only would people give me money, but they would think that they benefit from it!

And if that's not enough, my victims would fight to the finish anybody who would dare to tell them I'm scamming them. They would tell my accusers that those accusers must respect me. My victims would refuse to answer any of my accusers' tough questions--questions that if answered honestly and sensibly would expose my scam for what it is!

What would you call these?