Seeking clarity

[William]

Hi

Recently I started a thread asking Forum Members whether they felt that is is entirely unnecessary and insulting to inform people...
...That they are evil in the sight of GOD and bound for hell?

Unfortunately the thread started to go off on another tangent and when I tried to bring it back to the subject this did not help...even after I reported the fact.

So I decided the best course of action was to start another thread - this time asking Forum Members "Should people be allowed to continue to use their religious beliefs as a means to make personal attacks on others?"

The thread was quickly locked with the comment "Debating the rules in this fashion is close to challenging moderator action."

I don't think this is the case at all as I was not challenging moderator actions but seeking Forum Members opinions on whether they think that certain belief systems constitute Personal Attack, and if so, how this might be reflected in the rules to make sure that people do not use their beliefs as a means of being able to make personal attacks on other Members of this Forum, if the rules clearly do not allow for this to take place.

So for clarity, what is the stand re the rule 1. Personal attacks of any sort are not allowed. ?

Does 'any' mean 'every' or is the instance where personal beliefs come into it mean that "in the case of personal beliefs being expressed at anyone, as to inform people that they are evil in the sight of GOD and bound for hell, such expression is deemed not to be a personal attack?

Thank You.

William

[otseng]

I am saying that flatly telling/informing people they are evil in the sight of GOD and that GOD is going to send them to hell to suffer for eternity is way overstepping the line and should not be permitted, even if one or two individuals happen to have that particular belief and think it their right to inform people of it.

I would definitely agree with this. This is a reportable offense and would not be allowed on the forum.

[AdHoc]

[Replying to post 7 by AdHoc]

I think it would be deemed offensive by a lot of people. I think it depends on the person's motivation and approach. First of all I accept that in life people are going to offend me from time to time. sometimes inadvertently and sometimes on purpose.

Sometimes people come to my door to share their religion. They are polite and want to share their message but I know they think I'm going to hell or something. It doesn't offend me because of their approach.

Yeah I get that, but who are they to judge you, let alone judge you on your doorstep, even if they don't say it in so many words. Their beliefs say it.

Who else would you want to be judged by other than your peers?

A polite approach covers a multitude of sins eh?

haha well... to a point.

Is your particular argument that if one doesn't take any religion seriously one need not acknowledge the offences committed by those who do, simply because one doesn't take it seriously?

Yes exactly.

Unfortunately history teaches us that keeping silent, remaining indifferent and even not taking something seriously can have very bad consequences. Isn't it better to challenge the beliefs anyway, even if one doesn't take them seriously?

Yes absolutely! Every idea should be tested by challenge so the best ideas can be seen clearly. I'm not suggesting that I should never defend my positions but I try not to take offence.

Thanks for explaining that. I think I understand better now and I think I've changed my opinion on this a bit.

Thanks for saying so. See now that this is what we are all about in the sense that when individuals interact ripples happen, and if I remained silent then this conversation wouldn't have happened...

Do you think it's more important to say what you think is true or not give offense?

There is nothing personally offensive about what I understand re my theology and share on this forum.
When it comes to being offensive, should it be counted offensive to point out the offensive in an others belief?
One individual was so angry that I had called out the offence regarding their beliefs that he/she had this to say about it, even after being warned to moderate his/her expressions.

"I say and I say it again. Go to hell if your rules are not accordance with God RULES. If any atheists write something about my God they should get a warning. But they don't get a warning, why? Because the devil is the owner and the moderator teacher. They atheist blaspheme against God and everybody in the Bible, they don't get a warning."

~ Pipiripi [banned]

That kind of illustrates what I'm talking about. It seems like that person got a little bit disproportionately angry at what you said and I'm wondering if maybe there's something more going on...

This is primarily a debating site, but people get confused as to what is debate/discussion and what is preaching/informing and the above is clearly preaching and clearly show someone who is offended because their beliefs have been questioned. This is a debating site and beliefs can be questioned and when they are tainted with evil, pointing it out should never be taken personally. We are not our beliefs.

Or are both things equally important?

When sharing ones beliefs - informing people - if those beliefs are aimed at the person/people and designed to be offensive, then this is unacceptable. We know this to be the case. We do not have beliefs that single out cultures or genders or any other social things and label them 'evil'. Sure there are evil people, but this is not because of culture gender sexual preferences etc...this is because they are expressing evil into the world and causing harm.

There is no doubt that certain theistic beliefs do attack individuals and groups based upon culture gender etc. It is not acceptable to called the majority of humans evil and
bound for hell simply because it just happens to be ones belief and one is simply 'informing' people that this is the case.

It has even been pointed out that some Christians do not believe GOD sends people to hell or even that hell exists! They believe it is an attack on the character of GOD and evil for that.

If people make claims to inform others that the others are evil and bound for hell, why is that not offensive, but calling these beliefs evil is offensive?

Or maybe it changes depending on the subject?

There are many things people find offensive about the Abranite religions which are quantifiable and called out for that. One might not survive the same in some parts of the world where radical Abramites think they do GOD a service by murdering those who dare to question and call out evil done in the name of GOD, but while that remains not so much the case in most countries where Christendom is the major organised religion, one should take advantage of that.

While there is disagreement within Christendom regarding the subject of hell and GOD putting people into that place for eternity - some Christians believe Jesus was speaking about annihilation of the soul not eternal damnation - such cannot be considered The Truth of the matter and be permitted to use public platforms to essentially besmirch the idea (name/character) of GOD - GOD as an overall idea rather than any particular religions idea of 'who and what GOD is'.

What right do Christians have to be able to call people 'evil' and complain when people call some of their own doctrines 'evil'? Where is the consistency in that? Double standards are not expression of truthfulness.

According to the bible Christians have no right to judge people outside of the church.

[Replying to post 9 by otseng]

I would frown on describing another belief as evil or psychotic. Why would it be necessary to state that except to vent and incite others?

In addition to what I wrote above otseng, pointing out these things should not be considered venting or inciting and each case can be considered on its own. In the case of using a debate site for informing people that GOD considers most everybody evil and is going to send them to hell for eternity, this is clearly not even something all Christians agree on and as such should not be regarded as something that is allowed to be said by those who do believe it. People should not be allowed to inform others. Some beliefs are indeed evil or psychotic and pretending they are not is not a great way to have open debate but can and does incite feelings of being disrespected and personally attacked and a target for such venting.

Does the signage "GOD hates Fags" displayed by the Westboro Baptist Church incite anger and feelings of being disrespected and attacked?
How is informing people GOD hates sinners and is going to send them all to suffer in hell for eternity" any different?

Lets face it, why is such belief considered NOT to be a form of venting and/or inciting?

Would it not be better to simply disallow it because it is disrespectful, adds nothing to reasonable actual debate and - especially when used to 'inform', is an attack on anothers integrity and well-meaning?

Is it really such an essential component to Christian doctrine that it should be allowed to continue?

Hey I am not saying discussion and debate about the subject of hell should not be permitted. On the contrary.
I am saying that flatly telling/informing people they are evil in the sight of GOD and that GOD is going to send them to hell to suffer for eternity is way overstepping the line and should not be permitted, even if one or two individuals happen to have that particular belief and think it their right to inform people of it.

I agree with you.

I think Jesus would call people that act the way you described above "white-washed tombs"

Those opinions are not supported by the bible.

A) God loves sinners.

B) Christians are commanded by Christ to not judge people outside of the church.

C) See above