I am frequently amazed at the number of revelations one gets as the assumptions taught in childhood are cut through.
For example, Christians say God is forgiving because of love.
Let's be pragmatic a minute.
Assuming this God exists, God does not need to be forgiving because of love.
God can forgive the proverbial serial killers and so on, on their death bed, because he is no better himself.
He murdered and had had people murder; people, peoples, even entire planets because they irked him.
It is likely that God respects those people who murder people because of their particular beliefs or for reasons he respects, we can't understand.
Similar analogies can be made for other sinners.
But the point is: He can forgive everyone, not because of love, but because he has done far, far worse.
Isn't this more reasonable than, the verbal apology, "God is love"?
Why does God forgive sinners?
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Re: Why does God forgive sinners?
Post #11[Replying to post 10 by liamconnor]
Absolutely, forgiveness by Gos should be offered by all, sin God is the worst sinner.
No man could possibly hope to exceed the horrors committed by God, and so he really would need be a hypocrite to deny anyone his company.
Absolutely, forgiveness by Gos should be offered by all, sin God is the worst sinner.
No man could possibly hope to exceed the horrors committed by God, and so he really would need be a hypocrite to deny anyone his company.
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Re: Why does God forgive sinners?
Post #12[Replying to post 11 by Willum]
Apologies, I meant:
Absolutely, forgiveness by God should be offered to all, sin God is the worst sinner.
No man could possibly hope to exceed the horrors committed by God, and so he really would need be a hypocrite to deny anyone his company.
Apologies, I meant:
Absolutely, forgiveness by God should be offered to all, sin God is the worst sinner.
No man could possibly hope to exceed the horrors committed by God, and so he really would need be a hypocrite to deny anyone his company.
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Re: Why does God forgive sinners?
Post #13"The judge is evil and biased, the sheriff cruel and hostile and I am truly innocent"...says every person on death row. "They're worse than me. Why hang me and not them?"Willum wrote: [Replying to post 11 by Willum]
Apologies, I meant:
Absolutely, forgiveness by God should be offered to all, sin God is the worst sinner.
No man could possibly hope to exceed the horrors committed by God, and so he really would need be a hypocrite to deny anyone his company.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
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Re: Why does God forgive sinners?
Post #14[Replying to post 13 by ttruscott]
I agree, on Earth as it is in Heaven.
But in this case the Judge has confessed and indeed bragged about his sins.
For God so loved the world that he drowned almost every living creature on it.
I agree, on Earth as it is in Heaven.
But in this case the Judge has confessed and indeed bragged about his sins.
For God so loved the world that he drowned almost every living creature on it.
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Re: Why does God forgive sinners?
Post #15That doesn't help.liamconnor wrote:Why shouldn't forgiveness offered to the repentant be an element of morality, justice and righteousness? It seems you have imposed your own subjective criteria on these concepts. Jewish literature is redolent with the impression that to NOT forgive a repentant petitioner would be an injustice.Divine Insight wrote: This religion is supposed to be about morality, justice, and righteousness.
How can any of that be true if guilty sinners are being given free amnesty at the drop of a hat?
Clearly this religion has a major problem in its theological claims.
If forgiving someone who has made genuine repentance in their heart is justified, then there would be no need for that person to ask any God for any forgiveness. The forgiveness would be automatic at the moment of repentance.
Christianity tries to twist this into being all about the ego of a Jesus who needs people to ask him specifically for forgiveness.
So this doesn't work.
There would be no need to ask Jesus for forgiveness. Or even believe in Jesus at all, or any God for that matter. Repentance alone would be automatically sufficient.
So this argument doesn't help Christianity.
[center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
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Post #16
"But the point is: He can forgive everyone, not because of love, but because he has done far, far worse."
Actually, He can forgive those whom He so chooses, because as Creator, He can do what He wants with His creation. He is not under any law, much less the Law, for this reason. The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away. That's His prerogative. It may be "reprehensible" and "obscene" and "atrocious" from a human perspective, but that means absolutely nothing as far as God is concerned.
Like Paul rhetorically asks in Romans 9, "Who are you, O man, to answer back to God?"
Which harkens back to Job 38-41 and God's 70 questions to Job, starting with, "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Now gird up your loins like a man, and I will ask you, and you instruct Me! Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
And on and on and on, for three chapters of the Bible, after which Job finally said:
"I know that You can do all things, aAnd that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted. 'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; but now my eye sees You; therefore I retract, and I repent in dust and ashes.�
Smart man.
The fact is, God's justice only applies to men, because all men -- and indeed the entire universe -- is under His authority, whether they want to admit it or not. There is no authority except that which comes from God. Why can He forgive sinners? Because He wants to, and because He chooses to. As He says in Exodus, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.�
With this in view, the fact is that no man can satisfy His justice. Because of man's sin, it is not possible. So God gave Himself, in the form of His son Jesus, to satisfy His own perfect justice on behalf of all men. Because He SO LOVED the world. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. Thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.[/u]
Actually, He can forgive those whom He so chooses, because as Creator, He can do what He wants with His creation. He is not under any law, much less the Law, for this reason. The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away. That's His prerogative. It may be "reprehensible" and "obscene" and "atrocious" from a human perspective, but that means absolutely nothing as far as God is concerned.
Like Paul rhetorically asks in Romans 9, "Who are you, O man, to answer back to God?"
Which harkens back to Job 38-41 and God's 70 questions to Job, starting with, "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Now gird up your loins like a man, and I will ask you, and you instruct Me! Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
And on and on and on, for three chapters of the Bible, after which Job finally said:
"I know that You can do all things, aAnd that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted. 'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; but now my eye sees You; therefore I retract, and I repent in dust and ashes.�
Smart man.
The fact is, God's justice only applies to men, because all men -- and indeed the entire universe -- is under His authority, whether they want to admit it or not. There is no authority except that which comes from God. Why can He forgive sinners? Because He wants to, and because He chooses to. As He says in Exodus, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.�
With this in view, the fact is that no man can satisfy His justice. Because of man's sin, it is not possible. So God gave Himself, in the form of His son Jesus, to satisfy His own perfect justice on behalf of all men. Because He SO LOVED the world. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. Thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.[/u]
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Post #18
If Jesus had given his life, he'd still be dead. According to the Bible stories, he simply had a long nap one weekend. I'm pretty sure I could convince people who hardly know me to take a weekend off for me, a distant acquaintance. Heck, my friends would probably take a whole week off.PinSeeker wrote:
Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. Thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.[/u]
Last edited by Tcg on Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why does God forgive sinners?
Post #19Justification comes before repentence in the order of salvation. Justification is a one-time event that produces repentance. But a person who has been justified and subsequently repents of his sin is still a sinner, and thus still sins. This is why repentance is not a one-time event, but something that a Christian does continually. So Christians continue to confess and ask forgiveness for their sins. And thanks be to God, He is faithful and just to forgive.Divine Insight wrote: If forgiving someone who has made genuine repentance in their heart is justified, then there would be no need for that person to ask any God for any forgiveness. The forgiveness would be automatic at the moment of repentance.
You mean the same Jesus who gave Himself up to redeem sinners unto God? That Jesus? Because that's totally selfless and devoid of "ego." So Christianity does the exact opposite of what you assert here. How you could make such a ridiculously backward statement is literally astonishing.Divine Insight wrote: Christianity tries to twist this into being all about the ego of a Jesus who needs people to ask him specifically for forgiveness.
Well, you don't want it to. I understand.Divine Insight wrote: So this doesn't work.