Who was Jesus?

[marco]

Jesus asked his friends who he was. His family seemed to have given unfavourable reports which earned the rebuke that a prophet goes unrecognised among his own. But perhaps 2000 years on we should pay a little attention to those who knew him.


He got fisherfolk to abandon their families and he wandered around curing leprosy and death, even changing water into vintage wine. It took him 30 years to realise he had a calling, whatever it was. Sensationally he rose into the sky for that was where primitive heads thought heaven was.

What was he and did he know himself? Surely if he was false then the RC Church with billions of followers would not have been taken in.

Was he a plaything of the gods? A messenger like Merucry? A God himself? Or just a sincere preacher, perhaps self-deceived?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

Based on the zero physical evidence (no carpentry, no Lazarus,) and Jesus' actual impacts on society:

Pay taxes. Matthew 22:21
Obey government, even the pagan government of Rome: Peter 2:13
and Maintain the peace: Several references

I think Jesus was either a person sent to usurp Jerusalem for Rome, or just a bit of propaganda, that after centuries of refinements got good enough to fool most of the people most of the time.

[1213]

…Was he a plaything of the gods? A messenger like Merucry? A God himself? Or just a sincere preacher, perhaps self-deceived?

Bible tells Jesus was Messiah, Son of God, Savior, mediator between God and men, high priest.

He first found his own brother, Simon, and said to him, "We have found the Messiah!" (which is, being interpreted, Christ ["Messiah" (Hebrew) and "Christ" (Greek) both mean "Anointed One".]).
John 1:41
but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.
John 20:31
God exalted him with his right hand to be a Prince and a Savior, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins.
Acts 5:31
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5
Therefore he was obligated in all things to be made like his brothers, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people. For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.
Hebrews 2:17-18

[1213]

Pay taxes. Matthew 22:21
Obey government, even the pagan government of Rome: Peter 2:13
and Maintain the peace: Several references

I think Jesus was either a person sent to usurp Jerusalem for Rome, or just a bit of propaganda, that after centuries of refinements got good enough to fool most of the people most of the time.

Matt. 22:21 doesn’t tell that Jesus said people should pay taxes.

And isn’t maintaining peace good? It doesn’t mean people should agree with bad ideas of governments, after all, Jesus and many disciples were persecuted by rulers, so I think it is ridiculously stupid to claim they were government propaganda tools, when government was against them and tortured them.

[marco]

I think Jesus was either a person sent to usurp Jerusalem for Rome, or just a bit of propaganda, that after centuries of refinements got good enough to fool most of the people most of the time.

Yes it does seem as if Jesus worked with some agency, possibly Rome. He suddenly appeared on the scene at 30 and played down family links. He had things arranged unknown to the apostles (the donkey for example). The arrangements post mortem and post resurrectionem are ludicrous. "Hi, I've just risen from the dead. Tell my pals to meet me in Galilee." He either sleeps rough after rising or has secret places to stay beyond the say of his apostles. When Jesus takes three of his disciples up a mountain and goes off to speak with two strangers, he tells them that he has been speaking to Moses and Elijah, rather than, say, tribunes from Rome. Naturally it is more likely to have been the long dead prophets.

But we would be giving a natural explanation for the supernatural if one suggested Jesus was colluding with others. Apparently he spoke to the Prophets about his coming departure. Was Jesus an agent? Possibly. It would make more sense than trinities and incarnations, resurrections and ascensions.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 4 by 1213]

Am I the only one who is tired of religious people who believe so vehemently in a Book they don't understand or, apparently, even read?

No don't recount the story for me. I know it.
He was asked if they should pay tax, and he replied the tax money was Caesars, so...
YES.

[marco]

…Was he a plaything of the gods? A messenger like Merucry? A God himself? Or just a sincere preacher, perhaps self-deceived?

Bible tells Jesus was Messiah, Son of God, Savior, mediator between God and men, high priest.

That is the impression gained by men to whom he introduced himself. The general body of Jews did not accept this. Again, some think he was a god, like the Roman Emperors. These are just impressions. His family did not agree with these suggestions - and they would know.

[marco]

And isn’t maintaining peace good? It doesn’t mean people should agree with bad ideas of governments, after all, Jesus and many disciples were persecuted by rulers, so I think it is ridiculously stupid to claim they were government propaganda tools, when government was against them and tortured them.

The underlying point is that it is possible Jesus was a Roman agent. He studiously avoids making any criticism of Rome, despite the fact that Jews saw themselves as oppressed by their conquerors. If Rome could send in an agent, pretending he was a Jewish messiah, that might help political matters. They were not above doing this. It is of course hard to prove but if we are given the choice of supernatural intervention and political intervention, maybe we choose the latter.

[PinSeeker]

Matt. 22:21 doesn’t tell that Jesus said people should pay taxes. And isn’t maintaining peace good? It doesn’t mean people should agree with bad ideas of governments, after all, Jesus and many disciples were persecuted by rulers, so I think it is ridiculously stupid to claim they were government propaganda tools, when government was against them and tortured them.

Hey, 1213, spare yourself. Darkness loves darkness, and darkness breeds darkness. Get out while the gettin' is good.

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

If there was a single historical person the Jesus myth was crafted after, I'd love the chance to talk to him. I'd read to him a few selected passages from the gospels and have no doubt his responses would be, "I said what?", "I did what?", "I claimed what?".

I'm not sure if I'd have the nerve to read passages from Revelation to him.