A really basic question.

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polonius
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A really basic question.

Post #1

Post by polonius »

Do nonbelievers in Jesus such as Jews burn in hall for all eternity?

What about babies who die without making such a choice?

Are they all sent to hell?

In either of the Testaments does Jesus or God make such a claim?

If so where exactly?

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Re: A really basic question.

Post #2

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]

Well, since the majority of folks are going to Hell, believers or not, then it is easy to see that babies must go to Hell.

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Re: A really basic question.

Post #3

Post by PinSeeker »

polonius.advice wrote: Do nonbelievers in Jesus such as Jews burn in hall for all eternity?
Well, they are separated from God eternally. But not all Jewish folks are or will be nonbelievers. There are what we call Messianic Jews, you know. And, when the partial hardening of Israel is removed, there will be a lot of Jews coming to belief in Christ and repentance. But anyway, not all Jewish folks are or will be nonbelievers. Similar to every tongue, tribe, and nation.
polonius.advice wrote: What about babies who die without making such a choice? Are they all sent to hell?
No. Choice comes after the heart is regenerated... because God has given people new life. So conscious profession of one's faith, even if the person is unable to yet make it (as in the case of a baby) is not absolutely necessary. God can give a person new birth at any age, and that's what really matters.

Remember in Luke 1 the story of a pregnant Mary going to visit a pregnant Elizabeth? When they met, John leapt in Elizabeth's womb. John knew he was in the presence of his Savior, even though (of course) he wasn't able to consciously "decide" or "realize" that. That tells us is that God changed John's heart while he was yet in the womb. So no, not all babies go to hell. The hearts of some are regenerate. It's no different than people of all ages. Some are members of God's Elect, and some are not.
polonius.advice wrote: Are they all sent to hell?
No.
polonius.advice wrote: In either of the Testaments does Jesus or God make such a claim?
No.

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ttruscott
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Re: A really basic question.

Post #4

Post by ttruscott »

polonius.advice wrote: Do nonbelievers in Jesus such as Jews burn in hall for all eternity?
If belief is faith, yes...all those who rejected to put their faith in YHWH as their GOD and rejected faith in Christ as their saviour by their free will have made themselves eternally evil and eternally unable to fulfill the reason of their creation so will be banished to the outer darkness to keep them from joining the telepathic link of the heavenly marriage and corrupting it.
What about babies who die without making such a choice?
Orthodoxy has many tries at answering this question but PCE contends that every creature created in HIS image has heard the gospel and made their decision to accept it or not by faith, ie, an unproven hope: Colossians 1:23 ...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. "has been proclaimed" expresses the Greek tense of an action finished in the past then repeated in the future...in the past can easily include the time pre-earth. this verse says to me that everyone under heaven, that is, ever created, has already heard the gospel and accepted or rejected it and then have heard it repeatedly over the next few thousands of years or so.

Those who chose to be sinners were sent to earth for the redemption of the sinful elect. They were sown into the world of men, NOT created here on earth because the devil sows his people into the word also: Matt 13:36-39.
Are they all sent to hell?
There are two kinds of sinners: 1. temporary elect sinners who can be redeemed since they asked GOD to save them from all sin before they became sinners and 2. eternally evil sinners who chose to be outside of GOD's saving grace and mercy but who can't save themsleves.

But yes, all humans are sinners (only sinners are born on earth); and all sinners die so therefore indeed all humans die and age has no bearing on the topic at all. Only their bodies are new, not their spirits. But neither does death indicate a person's standing in their relationship with GOD as elect or reprobate destined to heaven or hell.
In either of the Testaments does Jesus or God make such a claim? If so where exactly?
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death... so death proves sin. Ever Chapter of the Bible is the word of GOD who also sends HIS Spirit to teach us HIS meaning: John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. But not everyone can understand: John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever, 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you.
Last edited by ttruscott on Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: A really basic question.

Post #5

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 4 by ttruscott]

The exclusionary claim that "faith in Christ" is necessary for salvation is easily refuted with a single verse. Isaiah 43.11
I, even I am YHVH, and beside me there is no savior.
Jesus is not Jehovah, and Jehovah alone is savior. And Jehovah never threatened anyone with the eternal torture of hell.

It is only the NT evangelists who made that threat.

In light of that verse and others, seems it is enough for salvation to believe in the Father, and to call on HIS name, not "the Son's".

because:
Whosoever shall call upon the name of YHVH will be saved.
Last edited by Elijah John on Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:22 am, edited 3 times in total.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: A really basic question.

Post #6

Post by Tcg »

polonius.advice wrote:
Do nonbelievers in Jesus such as Jews burn in hall for all eternity?

What about babies who die without making such a choice?

Are they all sent to hell?
I remember being taught of a Christian concept called the "age of accountability". That is the idea that babies/children who die before reaching an age in which they can understand the whole, "you're going to hell if you don't believe", message, don't go to hell.

In either of the Testaments does Jesus or God make such a claim?

If so where exactly?
I've heard this concept explained many times. No one I've heard do so has ever included any Bible passages to support this idea.

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Re: A really basic question.

Post #7

Post by ttruscott »

Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 4 by ttruscott]

Your claim is easily refuted with a single verse. Isaiah 43.11
I, even I am YHVH, and beside me there is no savior.
Since we know Jesus the messiah was the saviour this is another proof that He must be in the UNITY of divine Persons called YHWH...
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: A really basic question.

Post #8

Post by Tcg »

ttruscott wrote:
Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 4 by ttruscott]

Your claim is easily refuted with a single verse. Isaiah 43.11
I, even I am YHVH, and beside me there is no savior.
Since we know Jesus the messiah was the saviour this is another proof that He must be in the UNITY of divine Persons called YHWH...
No, we don't know that Jesus is the messiah. You may believe that Jesus is the messiah. Your belief isn't proof of anything other than that you believe Jesus is the messiah, assuming you are honestly reporting what you believe.

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Re: A really basic question.

Post #9

Post by Elijah John »

ttruscott wrote:
Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 4 by ttruscott]

Your claim is easily refuted with a single verse. Isaiah 43.11
I, even I am YHVH, and beside me there is no savior.
Since we know Jesus the messiah was the saviour this is another proof that He must be in the UNITY of divine Persons called YHWH...
You're beginning with the assumption that Jesus is the Messiah and the savior. That is not established, at least not in the OT/Hebrew Bible. So your reasoning is circular. Claiming that Jesus is the Messiah and savior is not proof of the Trinity, and it is not refutation of the doctrine of Shema, absolute monotheism.

When Isaiah wrote that verse, or God through Isaiah, what is your evidence that the Messiah was included as "savior" in addition to YHVH?

Seems only NT revisionism can make that projection, and change the original meaning.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: A really basic question.

Post #10

Post by PinSeeker »

Tcg wrote: No, we don't know that Jesus is the messiah. You may believe that Jesus is the messiah. Your belief isn't proof of anything other than that you believe Jesus is the messiah, assuming you are honestly reporting what you believe.
Ohhhhh, but he does know (as do I). Actually, he's reporting what he read (and what we all can read) in the Word of God:

"The woman said to Him, 'I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us.' Jesus said to her, 'I who speak to you am He.'" (John 4)

So, it's not subjective, but rather objective. And since Biblical faith is an assurance, and as such proof (Hebrews 11:1), given by God Himself (Ephesians 2:28), Who, in Jesus, is the author and finisher of Biblical faith (12:1), it is proof. It's just not proof that you accept, because of your unbelief.

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