World Mission Society Church of God

[For_The_Kingdom]

Part 1

Hello folks. Be prepared, as this is going to be a long post. This thread is mainly for Christians, or former Christians, as it is about to get very theological around here. But of course, anyone can weigh in on the topic as you see fit. I don’t make threads often, so when I do, it is usually something that has been on my mind for a while. I’ve had some recent experiences (off and on) for the past 3 years or so, that has really rocked my “theological� world. I’d like to share with you guys some of these experiences.

These experiences have humbled me. Why? Because as I pointed out elsewhere, sometimes I have a certain “arrogance� about myself; thinking that I know everything…or at the very least; thinking that I know enough. Come to find out, I have a longggg way to go. Knowledge never stops. The quest for learning never ends.

You see, for the past 15 years or so, when it comes to “in house� Christian debates, I’ve been focusing EXCLUSIVELY on Jehovah’s Witnesses. Why? Because I have members of my family that are JW’s…we are talking some of my favorite cousins; and over the years, theological debates with them have been common.

That, followed by their “arrogant� attitudes and “self-righteous� fronts, I’ve been pretty much programed to go after them (Jehovah’s Witnesses, in general)…completely ignoring all of the other “cults� or “sects� within Christianity (Mormons, SDA’s, Calvinists, Catholics, etc).

Not that I would ever shy away from those other folks. But let’s face, it, Jehovah’s Witnesses are out there on the forefront…their Kingdom Halls are everywhere, and they are constantly out there in the field, whether it be going door to door or posted up on the sidewalk with their carts…so it is far more convenient to converse with them, as opposed to any other groups.

Now, again, I’ve much dedicated my entire apologetic journey to Jehovah’s Witnesses (in house), pretty much ignoring all other sects. But I’ve always acknowledged that the “others� were out there.

I’d thought I’ve heard of just about every little group/sect of Christianity out there. Boy, was I wrong.

I will now turn our attention to the World Mission Society of God. Wait a minute…who? The World Mission Society of God. Who are these guys? Let me tell you the story..

So, about 2 years or so ago, I had went to a particular Walmart to handle some business, and as I was walking through the parking lot of the shopping center, I was approached by 2 gentleman (a young, Hispanic guy..and an older black guy). As they approached me, I could see a third gentleman (white guy) from a distance, talking to someone else in the parking lot. At first, I thought that they were Jehovah’s Witnesses. Of course, I always jump at the opportunity to discuss the Bible with JW’s. But as the two gentleman began to talk to me, I noticed that they were not Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Now keep in mind, this all happened a couple of years ago, so I can’t remember everything about the conversation, just bits and pieces..it went something like this (paraphrasing)…

Them: Hello sir, we are just out here spreading the word of God, you do believe in Father God, right?
Me: Absolutely.
Them: Do you believe in Mother God?
Me: Mother God?

Now let me pause right there. First off, let me be honest…in all of my years of living, and all the knowledge of ever had on God, the Bible, etc…I’ve NEVER…EVER, EVER heard of any Christian doctrine related to a “Mother God�. Not within Christianity. Never. Did you guys ever hear of a “Mother God� as it relates to Christianity? I certainly hadn’t. Not up until that point. Anyway..

Me: Mother God?
Them: Yes, Mother God. If there is a Father God, there has to be a Mother God, right? (or, If there is a Father God, doesn’t it make sense for there to be a Mother God) [A variation of those two statements]

Now, thinking back, I recall that the immediate non-biased reaction in my brain was to says “Right�, conceding his point, due to the natural order of things in the world (everyone has a biological father and mother). But the years of following Orthodox Christianity far out weighted this knee-jerk reaction.

Me: No, not necessarily.
Them: Oh, let me show you something..
*opens Bible, goes to Genesis 1:27*
Them: You see, God created man in his image, right?
Me: Right.
Them: And the woman was created in God’s image too, right?
Me: Right, but when it says “God created man in his image�, it is talking about “mankind�, and the woman (females) are included in “mankind�.
Them: But a woman is different than a man, right? So how can two humans with different “features� be created in one “single� image. Either God is a transgender God or there has to be a woman “model� of whose image the woman is made up from.

Wow, stumped me. Now, that is the gist of how the conversation began, there was more to be said after that. We stood there talking for about 10 minutes until the third gentleman joined us. So, the four of us stood out there for about a half hour discussing this. They invited me to have a Bible study at their church, which I agreed. I gave my contact info and wished them a good day.

However, they never called me back, and I had since forgotten about them, eventually concluding that they were part of a false cult or whatever.
Now, fast forward to about 6 months ago, as 2 years had passed since my encounter with them. I had to make a trip to the SAME Walmart. After handling my business, I was on my way to walk out of the Walmart, heading towards to final exit (in the area where you get your cart), when at the door, I see a young, Hispanic woman talking to two older Hispanic women at the door.

Again, I thought that these were Jehovah’s Witnesses. So I approached them and listened, and observed. The younger woman had her Bible open and was discussing some theological stuff with the women. For the most part, what she was saying seemed to be in order. However, when the two older ladies left, I began a conversation with the young woman (Lets call her Nicole).

To be honest, I can’t remember what we spoke about initially…HOWEVER, as the conversation lingered, she said something about “Mother God�. And then it dawned on me….ohhhhhh, she must be part of that same group. So our conversation went similar to the conversation I had with those gentlemen two years prior. Nicole and I stood there for about 15 minutes, going back and forth and things was getting a little tense, but in a good, spirited way.

Before she departed, Nicole invited me to their church for a Bible study, and I agreed. I gave her my contact info and vice versa. We agreed for the Bible study to take place on the following Monday. As we got closer to Monday, I told her that I didn’t have a vehicle…and she told me that transportation could be provided…and I told her she could just scoop me up at the same Walmart (we are communicating via text). She told me that she would have one of the “brothers� scoop me up at the Walmart.

So while I am waiting on the brother to scoop me up, she texted me, telling me that she think I am going to enjoy the Bible study, as they serve food and everything. I expressed to her the fact that I may not agree with everything that is being said at the study…and she said “No worries, this will be a personal Bible study and you will be able to ask as many questions as you like�.

Sounds good to me. So I arrive at the Walmart, and had some time to burn so I am waiting at the Mcdonald’s instead of Walmart. Suddenly, I get a text message

*Hello, this is (lets call him Orlando). Nicole told me you needed a ride to the church. I am outside*

He also texted me the type of car he drove and what side of the store to meet him. So, when I get outside, I see his car and he blew the horn. When I get into the car, I am greeted with a preppy, studious looking black guy. He was very well-spoken and mild mannered.

I introduced myself and we drove off to the church. As we rode, we talked about work and various other “acquaintance� subjects. The church wasn’t far, and we reached it between 3-5 minutes. We pull into the parking lot of a big church. On the front of the building, the words “World Mission Society Church of God� was in nice big letters.

At the time, I didn’t know that “World Mission Society Church of God� was the name of the denomination. I thought it was just the name of the church (big difference). Anyways, along-side of the church there was a smaller building. So, we got out of the car, and I followed him to the smaller building. As we approached the building, there were people socializing outside of the building. As we grew closer, everyone stopped talking and greeted us both. It was a very “welcoming� environment. We walk into the building, which is kind of a cafeteria/social setting, with booths and tables and chairs. And there was a full kitchen where women were serving food and drinks (non alcoholic).

Orlando asked me “Do you want to get something to eat�, to which I answered “Hecks yeah�. So we get something to eat. They were serving tacos/enchiladas and other stuff. As we waited in line, I looked around the room. There were various people at various tables and booths, eating and having Bible studies.
People were coming up to us and greeting us…and stopping for small talk/chatter. The place had a very friendly, warm, welcoming vibe to it. Actually, it had a very “Jehovah’s Witness/Kingdom Hall" kind of atmosphere (minus the food). If anyone ever visited a Kingdom Hall, you know what I am talking about.

So, Orlando and I get our food and we sit down at one of the tables to grub. After we ate, we got down to business. And once we began to talk…I was in for a surprise…Part 2 coming soon.

[Divine Insight]

I realize you are working on a part-2 and I might be back to read that as well. But since I have already read part-1 I'd like to comment on something that struck me as quite odd.

I'm answering this as a Former Christian, and my reply is precisely as it would have been when I was a Christian.

Me: Mother God?
Them: Yes, Mother God. If there is a Father God, there has to be a Mother God, right? (or, If there is a Father God, doesn’t it make sense for there to be a Mother God) [A variation of those two statements]

Now, thinking back, I recall that the immediate non-biased reaction in my brain was to says “Right�, conceding his point, due to the natural order of things in the world (everyone has a biological father and mother). But the years of following Orthodox Christianity far out weighted this knee-jerk reaction.

Me: No, not necessarily.
Them: Oh, let me show you something..
*opens Bible, goes to Genesis 1:27*
Them: You see, God created man in his image, right?
Me: Right.
Them: And the woman was created in God’s image too, right?
Me: Right, but when it says “God created man in his image�, it is talking about “mankind�, and the woman (females) are included in “mankind�.
Them: But a woman is different than a man, right? So how can two humans with different “features� be created in one “single� image. Either God is a transgender God or there has to be a woman “model� of whose image the woman is made up from.

Wow, stumped me.

At this point right here I've lost interest entirely.

Why should you have been stumped by this?

As a Christian myself I wouldn't have even bothered conversing with these gentlemen beyond this point.

Why?

Well, to begin with Eve was created from the rib of Adam. Eve what not created in the "image of God". So there's no need to require a female God in addition to a male God.

Also, wouldn't that instantly become polytheism anyway? You would then have at least two Gods. One God and one Goddess.

Finally, as a Christian I never took that biblical passage to mean that humans were created in the physical image of God anyway. It would have been a "spiritual image", not a physical image.

So I would have passed these guys off as trying to imagine a physical God that somehow looks just like a man.

Also, if there is a God and a Goddess, does the God have a penis just like a human male? Do the God and Goddess have sex? Does the Goddess give birth to more Gods?

I don't see how this isn't going to quickly become extreme polytheism.

How could you have a male and female God who are just like humans and not expect to have baby gods all over the place?

So my comment is to simply point out that what has 'stumped' you, woiuldn't even appear to me to be remotely rational. Especially not in a monotheistic religion.

Did you think to ask them if the God and Goddess ever have babies?

And if Jesus is their "only begotten Son", why did they stop there? Why not also have a daughter too?

It seems to me that this line of thinking is headed for extreme problems anyway if the religion is to be kept to monotheism. And if it heads off to polytheism then where are all these other Gods and Goddesses?

So I'm already at a loss as to why you would have given these men any more of your time.

[For_The_Kingdom]

Me: Mother God?
Them: Yes, Mother God. If there is a Father God, there has to be a Mother God, right? (or, If there is a Father God, doesn’t it make sense for there to be a Mother God) [A variation of those two statements]

Now, thinking back, I recall that the immediate non-biased reaction in my brain was to says “Right�, conceding his point, due to the natural order of things in the world (everyone has a biological father and mother). But the years of following Orthodox Christianity far out weighted this knee-jerk reaction.

Me: No, not necessarily.
Them: Oh, let me show you something..
*opens Bible, goes to Genesis 1:27*
Them: You see, God created man in his image, right?
Me: Right.
Them: And the woman was created in God’s image too, right?
Me: Right, but when it says “God created man in his image�, it is talking about “mankind�, and the woman (females) are included in “mankind�.
Them: But a woman is different than a man, right? So how can two humans with different “features� be created in one “single� image. Either God is a transgender God or there has to be a woman “model� of whose image the woman is made up from.

Wow, stumped me.

At this point right here I've lost interest entirely.

Why should you have been stumped by this?

Because...as a Christian, one of the first things we are taught is that we are made in the "image" of God. But what exactly does that mean? I never knew exactly what that meant (and in some ways, still don't), and I never bothered to do any research on it because, quite frankly, the subject never comes up in any of my theological discussions.

It never comes up in any of my discussions with JW's, because we all agree that we are in fact made in God's image, so we don't spend time talking about stuff that we all agree on.

It never comes up in any of my discussions with naturalists/atheists, because they don't believe in God in the first place, so trying to explain to them that we are made in God's image is pointless if I am unable to convince them that God exists at all.

So the subject never came up until that moment, and now, here is the time when the subject DOES come up..and I am unable to adequately respond to such a "far left" unorthodox Biblical interpretation.

I did enough to "get by", but I was ultimately stumped.

As a Christian myself I wouldn't have even bothered conversing with these gentlemen beyond this point.

Why?

Well, to begin with Eve was created from the rib of Adam. Eve what not created in the "image of God". So there's no need to require a female God in addition to a male God.

I gotta disagree with you there. The only intrinsic difference between a male in a female is our reproductive systems. God doesn't have a reproductive system, so in essence, we are right back to square one...what does it mean to say that man is created in "God's image", and how is the female excluded from that?

Also, wouldn't that instantly become polytheism anyway? You would then have at least two Gods. One God and one Goddess.

That is a good point...if and only if the Goddess is a "lesser" God (lesser abilities, etc).

Finally, as a Christian I never took that biblical passage to mean that humans were created in the physical image of God anyway. It would have been a "spiritual image", not a physical image.

But still, what does that mean? Females have spirits too, so how are they excluded?

So I would have passed these guys off as trying to imagine a physical God that somehow looks just like a man.

Also, if there is a God and a Goddess, does the God have a penis just like a human male? Do the God and Goddess have sex? Does the Goddess give birth to more Gods?

I guess the answer would be no...as God is a spirit and there is no need for that...but then again, we do have the nephilim..so hey.

I don't see how this isn't going to quickly become extreme polytheism.

Devil's advocate: "Besides me there is no other God, but I didn't say anything about there being no "Goddess".

How could you have a male and female God who are just like humans and not expect to have baby gods all over the place?

I don't think they are saying that the male and female God are copulating.

So my comment is to simply point out that what has 'stumped' you, woiuldn't even appear to me to be remotely rational. Especially not in a monotheistic religion.

I was stumped because I was unable to provide an adequate answer to what they were saying, for reasons previously mentioned.

And if Jesus is their "only begotten Son", why did they stop there? Why not also have a daughter too?

You are jumping ahead...because who said that Jesus is their "only begotten Son". Who said that? That isn't even their theology.

So I'm already at a loss as to why you would have given these men any more of your time.

You can't be a Christian Apologist, and not conduct yourself in Christian apologetics.

[tam]

Peace to you ftk,

Shortly after I ended my bible study with jehovah's witnesses (about ten years ago), I had a couple of women come to my door and talk about what they called the 'heavenly mother' or 'mother in heaven'. I can't remember the exact phrase. I don't remember much about the conversation except that they were misusing verses that are meant to describe other things/people (such as the Bride of Christ, or the spiritual realm)... as being this 'mother'.

Maybe they were from this same group you are talking about.

*shrugs*


Just one more daughter of Babylon the Great.




Peace to you!

.

[Divine Insight]

But still, what does that mean? Females have spirits too, so how are they excluded?

I never said that female would be excluded. In fact, if you imagine that "in the image of God" means spirit then you're already done. No need to bring any physical traits into the mix at all.

In fact, if you want to go with a God and Goddess as the models, then Adam would have been created in the image of God and Eve would have been created in the image of the Goddess. But now we're into polytheism where men and women have different creator Gods.

Men were created by a male God.

And women were created by a female Goddess.

I was stumped because I was unable to provide an adequate answer to what they were saying, for reasons previously mentioned.

If this is true then all you are saying here is that you have placed your faith in an ill-defined theology that even you have no clue what it's all about.

You are jumping ahead...because who said that Jesus is their "only begotten Son". Who said that? That isn't even their theology.

So they reject the Gospel of John? Do you?

You can't be a Christian Apologist, and not conduct yourself in Christian apologetics.

If you are constantly apologizing for a theology that even you have no clue about that's hardly impressive.

Also if you are constantly seeking out people on the street to find a meaningful theology, then clearly you don't already have one.

When I was a Christian at least I knew what I believed. I simply discovered later that the things I believed were extremely contradictory and ultimately could not be true.

There's really no need to go off looking for better theologies at that point.

If you're out there on the streets looking for a better theology then clearly you don't yet have one. How can you apologize for a theology when you yourself aren't even sure what it entails?

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 1 by For_The_Kingdom]

Hallo FTK

Part 1 was very well written. You got some talent there.

I will love to hear part 2

And remember - Divine Insight is not always right

Alright..I have had some beers (3 and going for number 4), so maybe I am wrong, but I am still not way out and putting music on...arhh...maybe a little way out...because I just think this is great:



It makes me happy.

But now I have to answer JW (The tree of truth) and that makes me sad because what should I tell him...something good I think...maybe the truth

[For_The_Kingdom]

Peace to you ftk,

Shortly after I ended my bible study with jehovah's witnesses (about ten years ago), I had a couple of women come to my door and talk about what they called the 'heavenly mother' or 'mother in heaven'. I can't remember the exact phrase. I don't remember much about the conversation except that they were misusing verses that are meant to describe other things/people (such as the Bride of Christ, or the spiritual realm)... as being this 'mother'.

Maybe they were from this same group you are talking about.

*shrugs*


Just one more daughter of Babylon the Great.




Peace to you!

.

I think the women that you encountered were part of the same group. I personally don't know how many "Mother God" groups there are, but I think the WMSCOG are the biggest sect out there. Makes me wonder how many branches of that denomination is out there, if any.

But yup, sounds like the same group, especially with the "Bride of Christ" stuff.

[For_The_Kingdom]

[Replying to post 1 by For_The_Kingdom]

Hallo FTK

Part 1 was very well written. You got some talent there.

I will love to hear part 2

Thank you

And remember - Divine Insight is not always right

I remember.

[For_The_Kingdom]

I never said that female would be excluded. In fact, if you imagine that "in the image of God" means spirit then you're already done. No need to bring any physical traits into the mix at all.

That still doesn't answer the question of, "But a woman is different than a man, right? So how can two humans with different “features� be created in one “single� image. Either God is a transgender God or there has to be a woman “model� of whose image the woman is made up from."

In fact, if you want to go with a God and Goddess as the models, then Adam would have been created in the image of God and Eve would have been created in the image of the Goddess.

That is pretty much the idea, yeah.

But now we're into polytheism where men and women have different creator Gods.

Men were created by a male God.

And women were created by a female Goddess.

As I stated before, it would be polytheism only if one God is lesser (powers/abilities) than the other God. If they both have the same powers/abilities, then it would be a "Trinity" thing going on here...which is certainly not polytheism

If this is true then all you are saying here is that you have placed your faith in an ill-defined theology that even you have no clue what it's all about.

I don't have to know every single particular about something in order to believe that it is true.

So they reject the Gospel of John? Do you?

The Gospel of John doesn't say that Father/Mother God had a baby and out came Jesus. Even they don't believe that much.

If you are constantly apologizing for a theology that even you have no clue about that's hardly impressive.

Let me guess; you think Christian "Apologetics" means "apology: to feel sorry for", huh?

Soo, who is it that doesn't have a clue what it (Christian Apologetics) is all about?

Also if you are constantly seeking out people on the street to find a meaningful theology, then clearly you don't already have one.

Straw man.

When I was a Christian at least I knew what I believed. I simply discovered later that the things I believed were extremely contradictory and ultimately could not be true.

There's really no need to go off looking for better theologies at that point.

Straw man. No one is looking for "better theologies".

If you're out there on the streets looking for a better theology then clearly you don't yet have one. How can you apologize for a theology when you yourself aren't even sure what it entails?

Straw man and continual ignorance of what "Christian Apologetics" actually entails.

"How can you be critical of something (Christian Apologetics) when you yourself don't even know what it (Christian Apologetics) entails?"

Here, be educated..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_apologetics

[Divine Insight]

That still doesn't answer the question of, "But a woman is different than a man, right? So how can two humans with different “features� be created in one “single� image. Either God is a transgender God or there has to be a woman “model� of whose image the woman is made up from."

Or maybe there is no God that created humans in its image.

Keep in mind here that you are the one who is trying to develop a consistent theology. If you already had a consistent theology you wouldn't need to be trying to develop one. So you obviously don't yet have one.

In fact, if you want to go with a God and Goddess as the models, then Adam would have been created in the image of God and Eve would have been created in the image of the Goddess.

That is pretty much the idea, yeah.

There actually already exist other religions that have this model. Wicca, for example, already includes a Goddess and a God. So if this type of theology seems more consistent to you then why not just move over to it instead of trying to twist a monotheistic patriarchal religion to meet this criteria?

But now we're into polytheism where men and women have different creator Gods.

Men were created by a male God.

And women were created by a female Goddess.

As I stated before, it would be polytheism only if one God is lesser (powers/abilities) than the other God. If they both have the same powers/abilities, then it would be a "Trinity" thing going on here...which is certainly not polytheism

It wouldn't be a "Trinity" until they had a baby. And then there would be the question of why they only had one baby? And why would that baby have been a male? Or a female? Why not have one of each?

In fact, why even stop with just two baby Gods? If these Gods are capable of procreating themselves, why woulodn't their be infinitely many Gods?

See, when you don't already have a consistent theology its extremely difficult to try to invent one that actually makes any sense.

If this is true then all you are saying here is that you have placed your faith in an ill-defined theology that even you have no clue what it's all about.

I don't have to know every single particular about something in order to believe that it is true.

If you don't know what it is that you believe, then how can you claim to believe it?

And far more importantly how could you ever hope to apologize for something even you don't understand?

So they reject the Gospel of John? Do you?

The Gospel of John doesn't say that Father/Mother God had a baby and out came Jesus. Even they don't believe that much.

John, clearly refers to Jesus as the "Only Begotten Son of God".

John 3:
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

If you need to reject this in order to make sense of this religion it seems to me that you are already having problems accepting what this religion has to say.

If you are constantly apologizing for a theology that even you have no clue about that's hardly impressive.

Let me guess; you think Christian "Apologetics" means "apology: to feel sorry for", huh?

Soo, who is it that doesn't have a clue what it (Christian Apologetics) is all about?

Who said anything about feeling sorry for anyone?

Apologetics is to offer apologies (i.e. explanations) for why you believe something that critics and skeptics are constantly pointing out contradictions and other absurdities in.

If there were no contradictions and absurdities there would no need to offer apologies for the dogma (i.e. explanations for why it doesn't make any sense as written)

Also if you are constantly seeking out people on the street to find a meaningful theology, then clearly you don't already have one.

Straw man.

Hardly. If you have a consistent sound theology why are you looking to strangers in Wal-Mart parking lots to help you make sense of a theology that clearly does not already make sense to you.

If it already made sense to you, you wouldn't have been "stumped" when various questions or concerns came up associated with your theology.

When I was a Christian at least I knew what I believed. I simply discovered later that the things I believed were extremely contradictory and ultimately could not be true.

There's really no need to go off looking for better theologies at that point.

Straw man. No one is looking for "better theologies".

Well, you were the one who claimed to have been "stumped" when they brought up questions about how many creator Gods there are.

If you're out there on the streets looking for a better theology then clearly you don't yet have one. How can you apologize for a theology when you yourself aren't even sure what it entails?

Straw man and continual ignorance of what "Christian Apologetics" actually entails.

"How can you be critical of something (Christian Apologetics) when you yourself don't even know what it (Christian Apologetics) entails?"

Here, be educated..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_apologetics

And now you are the one who is not only creating a straw man, but you are even attempting to insult me by claiming that I don't know what Christian apologetics entails.

Here's the quote from the very first sentence of the Wiki site you just linked to:

Christian apologetics (Greek: ἀπολογία, "verbal defence, speech in defence")[1] is a branch of Christian theology that attempts to defend Christianity against objections

This is precisely the explanation I gave above.

You were the one who tried to create a straw man by accusing me of using the term "apologetics" to mean to feel sorry for someone.

Clearly you cannot offer any apologies for Christianity when you aren't even sure whether or not there is only one God or two, in this religion.

And then you even mentioned a "Trinity" earlier so you need to bring in a third God. In Christianity that's usually Jesus as the MALE only begotten Son of God.

But then you're stuck with having to apologize (i.e. offer explanations) for why your God and Goddess only had one begotten child, and why that child was a male, and why they stopped having children after that.

Apparently you've got a whole boat load of apologizing to do yet. (where in apologetics to "apologize" for something simply means to explain the details of your theology so they make some sort of rational sense).

So why did this God and Goddess only have one God child? And how did they procreate this God child? As I asked before, does God have a penis? Did the God and Goddess need to have sex? And if they are capable of procreating more Gods, then why did they stop with only having one son and no daughters?

This is the problem with apologetics. Once you climb onto the apologetics bandwagon it's a never ending journey of endless apologies. I figured that one out a very long time ago.

I used to apologize for Christianity too, until I finally came to the revitalization that it's a endless futile journey.

Think about, even the most devout life-long apologists couldn't even convince each other of their apologies for these ancient fables.

In fact, for over 2000 years no one has been able to come up with a rational apology for this religion. That's why there are so many disagreeing apologists still at it today. They simply refuse to give up, even though it couldn't be explained in a reasonable way for over 2000 years.

You should really ask yourself that if no one else came up with a sound apology for this religion why should you think that you might be able to do it today?

I was a Christian apologist who simply saw the futility of this practice early on.

What saved me was the very simple acceptance that there are no apologies to be had, and the religion has no more merit than Greek Mythology. And far more importantly I saw that that conclusion actually made PERFECT SENSE.

So I no longer need to apologize for rejecting an ancient folklore that no one can make any sense of.

In some sense you can say that I actually found the answer. The answer is that the religion is simply a very poorly thought out folklore and rumors.

And hey that actually works perfectly with no further explanations required.

Christian theologians should be permitted to come to this conclusion. Unfortunately they aren't permitted to come to this conclusion because the moment they do they are instantly then renounced as "Christian theologians".

However, in reality there are actually many Christian theologians who realized the religion cannot be true. They are simply referred to as Atheists today.

I'm a Christian Theologian who has concluded that Christianity is a superstitious myth.

And I hold that this should be a respectable option for all Christian Theologians to come to.

Then instead of constantly screaming "Straw man" at me for my views, you could see them the views of a fellow Christian Theologian who has simply come to the realization that the religion cannot be true.

If Christian theology is to be a valid academic study, then the conclusion that it might not be true must be included in the possible conclusions that can be reached.

Take away that conclusion as being permissible, and instead of it being a valid academic study, it becomes nothing more than "Bible Study" (for believers only).

But if you need to be a believer in order to study Christian theology, then the cart has been placed before the horse (i.e. the conclusion has been demanded before any study has even gotten underway).

So the conclusion that the religion might not be true, needs to be a respectable conclusion. Otherwise the field of theology is a "rigged system" that doesn't allow for honest answers.