Why are people so determined

[Elijah John]

Why are so many people so determined to worship Jesus? It is not a Biblical imperative. "Worship Jesus" is not a Commandment. And there is plenty of Biblical evidence that Jesus is not God. (Just talk to any Jehovah's Witness, most seem adept at supporting their beliefs with Scripture)

So why is it that so many people are so determined to worship Jesus? Even in light of evidence (Biblical and otherwise) that Jesus is not God.

Childhood or cultural conditioning? Indoctrination? Or hero worship taken to the extreme?

Is the prevelance of Jesus-worship evidence of a very human tendency to worship our heroes?

[bjs]

[Replying to Elijah John]

Will you at least agree that this is by far the minority opinion? The vast, vast majority of people who study the scriptures agree that the NT portrays Jesus as God.

JWs, Mormons, and a few other small sect say that the scriptures do not teach that Jesus is God. The overwhelming majority of people say that scriptures teach that Jesus is God.

Blaming this on indoctrination or hero worship seems like a cop out (and one that I feel is unworthy of you EJ. You’re better than that).

[Elijah John]

[Replying to Elijah John]

Will you at least agree that this is by far the minority opinion?

Yes, that I will concede. Monotheistic Christians like JWs are the minority, though a major presence on our site.

The vast, vast majority of people who study the scriptures agree that the NT portrays Jesus as God.

I doubt it. I think most who come to that conclusion are indocrinated on certain ways to "study the Bible" by their pastors, and "Bible teachers". And Evangelical tracts such as the "Four Spiritual Laws" encourage the newly "born again" to begin their Bible studies with the Gospel of John. Why is that? Could it be they want the new recruit to view the rest of the Bible with that Johannine lens that is so favorable to the notion that "Jesus is God"?

JWs, Mormons, and a few other small sect say that the scriptures do not teach that Jesus is God. The overwhelming majority of people say that scriptures teach that Jesus is God.

Blaming this on indoctrination or hero worship seems like a cop out (and one that I feel is unworthy of you EJ. You’re better than that).

Cop out? No way. Better than that? Naw, that is me at my best. That is my honest position. And I am not questioning the sincerity of the vast majority of Jesus-worshipers. Childhood and cultural indoctrination is not an easy thing to overcome.

But I doubt very much that a fresh reading of the Bible will lead most to the conclusion that "Jesus is God" (though some will reach that conclusion) and I do honestly believe that humans have a tendency to mythologize their heroes.

"Elvis devotion" may not be worship per se, but it is pretty darn close. As the song "Black Velvet" goes, "a new religion that will bring you to your knees..."

There have even been "Elvis sightings" after his death.

Then there's the myth of George Washington. The whole "cherry tree" bit is myth. And there is a painting of the US first President on his deathbed with the angels above on coulds waiting to escort him to Heaven.

Mild hero worship at the very least. I'm sure there are many other examples.

After seeing what happened to Jesus, Muslims have not disclosed Mohammad's gravesite, for fear it becoming a shrine. They know human nature.

Back to the main point. Why do some Jesus-worshpers twist verses like John 17.3, which clearly indicates that the Father alone is God? Somehow they see Trinitarianism in that verse. That is just one example of contrary NT evidence to the notion that Jesus is God and should be worshiped.

[Divine Insight]

(Just talk to any Jehovah's Witness, most seem adept at supporting their beliefs with Scripture)

That's certainly a matter of personal opinion. I don't see where their religious apologies for the scriptures hold any more water than any other sect of the religion.

Moreover, you seem to be missing an extremely important point in Christianity. Jesus cannot have been just a human man. For if he were and he managed to live a sinless life, then he could have indeed vindicated all humans. But not because he was a gift from God, but rather because he was a human who vindicated humans.

That doesn't work in Christianity.

We can't have a human vindicating humans. Supposedly God "gave his only begotten Son" as the "Sacrificial Lamb" for all humans. This was God's idea, not Jesus' idea.


This is why the virgin birth is so important in Christianity. Jesus had to have been born of divine origin.

Do the JW's dismiss the virgin birth of Jesus? If they do, then I would suggest that they have tossed out a major thesis of this religion.

Once we embrace the virgin birth then Jesus can only be one of two things.

1. The demigod Son of God born of the copulation of God with the virgin Mary.

Or

2. A direct incarnation of God himself through Mary.

Most Christians reject #1 because Jesus as the demigod Son of God is too much like the Greek demigod tales. In other words, Jesus then becomes "just another demigod tale". Not only this, but then this leads to a polytheistic religion which Christendom rejects.

So the only acceptable solution to this problem is the invention of the Trinity. The idea that Jesus is a direct incarnation of God himself in some fashion that defies human comprehension.

None the less, this is still seen as God himself becoming incarnate as Jesus on Earth.

So God and the Father are one. Which the gospels actually have Jesus proclaiming. Jesus also supposedly said that "before Abraham was I am".

That's the most widely accepted view of Christianity. Keep in mind also that JW's are only something like 2% of Christendom. In other words, they are an extremely small offshoot that didn't even exist until the late 1800's.

There's really no reason to be pointing to them as any sort of authority on this religion. As a denomination of Christianity they are actually an extreme late-comer. There's really no reason to believe anything they have to say about this religion. They are basically rebels who have rejected the bulk of traditional Christendom.

If they reject the divinity of Christ, then most other Christian sects and demoninations would reject their views.

And if they do accept the divinity of Christ, then there you go!

They can't be claiming that he was both divine and not divine. They need to make up their minds on that one.

And keep in mind that the idea that Jesus was both 100% God, and 100% man, is just as ridiculous as the Trinity. In fact, to say that Jesus was both God and man requires that Jesus was God.

There's just no getting around it.

If Jesus wasn't some sort of incarnation of God, then Christianity dies. All Christians may as well go back to Judaism at that point.

[dianaiad]

[Replying to Elijah John]

Will you at least agree that this is by far the minority opinion? The vast, vast majority of people who study the scriptures agree that the NT portrays Jesus as God.

JWs, Mormons, and a few other small sect say that the scriptures do not teach that Jesus is God. The overwhelming majority of people say that scriptures teach that Jesus is God.

Blaming this on indoctrination or hero worship seems like a cop out (and one that I feel is unworthy of you EJ. You’re better than that).

Just an interjection here...a correction of beliefs. Mormons do not teach that Jesus is not God. They teach that Jesus is not God the Father. They aren't trinitarians, in other words. They DO teach that Jesus is God, the second Member of the Godhead. That may sound picky to some, but to those involved in Trinitarian arguments, it's a very important distinction.

Not a great big thing, here, just a mild correction of fact. Carry on.....

[bjs]

[Replying to dianaiad]

It seems that I am confused then. Trinitarians also teach that Jesus is not God the Father. Perhaps you could explain your belief, and how it is different from the orthodox Trinity.

[steveb1]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

The Western people of late antiquity liked to have gods who had human faces. Christianity was a new iteration of that - Jesus - God and perfect human being. Who, while on earth, was heard and touched, and whose Real Presence continues in the Eucharist of certain liturgical churches. "Jesus was God-become-man" and as such served as the perfect archetype for those who preferred to have a quasi-material, quasi-human deity. YHWH was too spiritual, isolated and remote for worldly tastes, but Jesus as "God incarnate" had truly been "one of us".

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

The Western people of late antiquity liked to have gods who had human faces. Christianity was a new iteration of that - Jesus - God and perfect human being. Who, while on earth, was heard and touched, and whose Real Presence continues in the Eucharist of certain liturgical churches. "Jesus was God-become-man" and as such served as the perfect archetype for those who preferred to have a quasi-material, quasi-human deity. YHWH was too spiritual, isolated and remote for worldly tastes, but Jesus as "God incarnate" had truly been "one of us".

I think you are onto something there. There really seems to be a need to bring God, "down to earth". In YHVH, He has a name, in Jesus, a face.

An appealing and powerful idea whether or not it's reality.

[steveb1]

[Replying to post 8 by Elijah John]

Thanks. It seems that the Jesus of the mainstream embodies rich archetypal "Jungian" material from the collective unconscious - a hero, virgin-born, a savior, a holy child, a prophet, a dying-rising liberator, a brother because he's human, God because he's the Second Person, the wise teacher, the courageous leader and martyr, the doubting human who fears his own death, the afflicter of conscience, the judge, the Way to follow, and the pioneer and perfecter of the Christian life. All things spiritual in one numinous whole.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to Elijah John]

Will you at least agree that this is by far the minority opinion? The vast, vast majority of people who study the scriptures agree that the NT portrays Jesus as God.

JWs, Mormons, and a few other small sect say that the scriptures do not teach that Jesus is God. The overwhelming majority of people say that scriptures teach that Jesus is God.

Blaming this on indoctrination or hero worship seems like a cop out (and one that I feel is unworthy of you EJ. You’re better than that).

Just an interjection here...a correction of beliefs. Mormons do not teach that Jesus is not God. They teach that Jesus is not God the Father. They aren't trinitarians, in other words. They DO teach that Jesus is God, the second Member of the Godhead. That may sound picky to some, but to those involved in Trinitarian arguments, it's a very important distinction.

Not a great big thing, here, just a mild correction of fact. Carry on.....

Excellent, I do like it when I learn something new. Do you perchance have a reference for this?