Clear Challenges to the Trinity Doctrine Examined

[tigger2]

CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961.
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Athanasian Creed:

"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
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"Trinity, the Most Holy

"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
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The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

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Clear Challenges from scripture itself:

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

(Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly and frequently described with the word “one� or its equivalent - “alone,� “only,� etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to “Jesus is the Christ� or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:

“YHWH is the Son,� or “YHWH is the Firstborn,� or, “YHWH is the Messiah (or ‘Christ’),� or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that “Jesus is YHWH� (the only God according to scripture).
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Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in ‘three distinct persons’):

(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" – Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)

and,
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(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
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(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, how could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were? (This not only would not have been allowed, but the Jews would have stoned them to death.)
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(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential ‘knowledge’ of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, “But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…�

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(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: “Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.� - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!

I believe any objective observer would admit that the answers to these simple scriptural challenges (A-H above) should be abundantly, clearly, indisputably available if the trinity (or ‘Jesus is God’) worshipers are correct.

To look for rare instances of unclear, disputed scriptures which have to be interpreted to fit a trinitarian concept (developed after the death of the last Apostle and the completion of Scripture) and convince yourself that they are "proofs" seems to me to be a tragic error.

God has always existed as God and, therefore, His people should have always known who He was and worshiped him in truth.

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[tigger2]

Gen. 18:1-19:1 tells of three "men" who meet Abraham. These three turned out to be angels of Jehovah, and only one of them speaks for God (as in the burning bush of Exodus). Again God is properly represented by one, single individual even though it would have been incredibly easy (and appropriate, if true) for God to have used all three persons here to represent him equally as God.

Even the highly trinitarian NIVSB admits in its footnote for Gen. 18:2 -
"three men. At least two of the 'men' were angels (see 19:1; see also note on 16:7). The third may have been the Lord himself..." [And the NIVSB footnote on Gen. 16:7 referred to above says:] ".... It may be, however, that as the Lord's personal messenger who represented him and bore his credentials, the [single] angel could speak on behalf of (and so be identified with) the One who sent him" - The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan Publ., 1985.

And the extremely trinitarian ISBE admits:

"Gen 18-- Abraham intercedes with the angel for Sodom" - p. 133, Vol. 1, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1984 printing.

Yes, truly, here was a perfect opportunity to show at least a hint of a 3-person God. But, instead, as always, the inspired Bible writer shows the solitary figure of a single angel representing Jehovah, the only true God! God is one person only, the Father - Jehovah!

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 1 by tigger2]

What exactly is the QforD in the OP? OPs are not for presenting one's dissertation on a topic. An OP of this length will probably deter people.

[Wootah]

Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

Thoughts

1) Clear is a subjective term.

2) If there were clear and multiple visions and dreams of three people it would probably undermine the idea of monotheism totally in the Bible.

3) There are plenty of wrinkles in the bible the non trinitarian nneds to explain. Why wouldn't God know he is one person and allow those wrinkles?
Examples: https://overviewbible.com/trinity-bible-verses/

4) i offer revelation 4 and 5 as a vision dream of the Holy Spirit, Father and Son.

[tigger2]

Wootah wrote:

4) i offer revelation 4 and 5 as a vision dream of the Holy Spirit, Father and Son.

Like Ezekiel's vision there is only one person who is God seated on his throne.

See Challenge A above concerning the visions in Ezekiel and Revelation.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 14 by tigger2]

Oh. So your vision of three people needs them to all be seated?
Imagine they were. Then you would point out only one is in the middle.

Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!�

But just a bit more for the one that is sitting down I guess.


Question for you: If there were many clear images of three beings representing God in the Bible would you be a trinitarian or polytheist?

[tigger2]

[Replying to post 1 by tigger2]

What exactly is the QforD in the OP? OPs are not for presenting one's dissertation on a topic. An OP of this length will probably deter people.

It shouldn't be too hard to see that I am asking 'Can you prove Challenge A is incorrect? Can you prove that Challenge B is incorrect? Can you ....'

[tigger2]

[Replying to post 15 by Wootah]

Show me where anyone in these visions except the one seated on the throne is called God.

[tigger2]

[Replying to post 15 by Wootah]

Let me rephrase then:

Like Ezekiel's vision there is only one person who is shown as God, and he is the one seated on his throne.

See Challenge A above concerning the visions in Ezekiel and Revelation.

[Wootah]

Question for tigger2: If there were many clear images of three beings representing God in the Bible would you be a trinitarian or polytheist?

[Wootah]

Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

(Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly and frequently described with the word “one� or its equivalent - “alone,� “only,� etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.

No one would expect this because there is only one God. This ties into your first challenge. If the Bible said God was three would you a Trinitarian or Polytheist?

If you claim Trinitarian then are you claiming that you can see in the Bible evidence for Trinitarianism? An answer would be appreciated.