If Abraham's GOD knew....

[William]

Assuming Abe's GOD knew that Abe would sacrifice his son, why bother going through the motions of it all? What is the point therein?

(The assumption is based on the idea that the GOD can look into a persons heart and mind and know that person's intentions.)

[Elijah John]

Assuming Abe's GOD knew that Abe would sacrifice his son, why bother going through the motions of it all? What is the point therein?

(The assumption is based on the idea that the GOD can look into a persons heart and mind and know that person's intentions.)

Excellent question. The tale seems to be told not so much as to illustrate the benevolence and omnicience of God, but rather to glorify Abaham, (and by extention the Jewish people) for his "great faith".

An atrocious and disgusting story, and it makes me wonder how many people it has inspired to slaughter their own children "for the good of their souls" or "for their own good" or because "God told them to do so" or "God was testing them".

Maybe just a handful, but even one would be waaaay too many.

[bluethread]

It was done for Avbraham's benefit and our own. It affirmed to Avraham that he held Adonai in at least as high regard as the deities of the nations and it also establishes that human sacrifice is not acceptable for Adonai's people.

[JehovahsWitness]

Assuming Abe's GOD knew that Abe would sacrifice his son, why bother going through the motions of it all? What is the point therein?

NOTE: The above assumption is in direct contradiction of the text which states that only after Abraham had demonstrated his willingness to go through with the test did God declared "NOW I do know...", the implication being he didn't know before.

Assuming the text didn't declare the above though, I believe that the point was that Abraham was participating in a "Prophetic Drama" that illustrated the sacrifice Jehovah (and his beloved son Jesus) would be willing to make on behalf of mankind. In short to drive home what an incredibly huge sacrifice was going to be made and hw painful that would be for God, which in turn should imprint on the hearts and minds of those that can be touched, how much both JEHOVAH and Jesus love humans and how far they were both willing to go so that humans have the opportunity to live forever. The price couldn't have been higher, the love couldn't have been more.






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[William]

Those are some interesting answers...

[Replying to post 2 by Elijah John]

Excellent question.

I have been mulling on it for a few months now...

The tale seems to be told not so much as to illustrate the benevolence and omnicience of God, but rather to glorify Abaham, (and by extention the Jewish people) for his "great faith".

This appears to be a similar understanding that BT and JW are expressing...only of course... in the positive.

An atrocious and disgusting story, and it makes me wonder how many people it has inspired to slaughter their own children "for the good of their souls" or "for their own good" or because "God told them to do so" or "God was testing them".

Maybe just a handful, but even one would be waaaay too many.

This implies that the God would be able to forgive those who - having the same intent as He - did such deeds some deem to be 'atrocious and disgusting'... The intent is the thing under question...

I am struggling with the notion that humans beings actually do have the knowledge of good and evil and can discern altogether what 'atrocious and disgusting' actually is.

It appears to be very much a matter of opinion rather than something which can be pointed to as an actual absolute - scientifically verifiable.

[Replying to post 3 by bluethread]

It was done for Avbraham's benefit and our own. It affirmed to Avraham that he held Adonai in at least as high regard as the deities of the nations...

Only - in what apparent way is Adonai actually any more a better example than 'the deities of the nations' apart from being an actual GOD?
This is what many struggle with comprehending. How is a false [strike]GOD[/strike] god demanding human sacrifice any better than a real GOD demanding human sacrifice?

...and it also establishes that human sacrifice is not acceptable for Adonai's people.

I struggle with this in terms of such stories hundreds of years after Avbrahamm, in Yeshuas time, people of Avbraham were willing to sacrifice the adulterous in their midst with the belief they had the nod of approval from Adonai.

Perhaps they were not sacrificing these for Adonia but simple culling them from their midst?

But wouldn't that really amount to the same thing?

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

NOTE: The above assumption is in direct contradiction of the text which states that only after Abraham had demonstrated his willingness to go through with the test did God declared "NOW I do know...", the implication being he didn't know before.

I think that argument can be placed to one side for now. It brings the confusion of Jehovah being willing to turn off his abilities when it suited, which implies he was in some way testing himself as well as Abraham. Not that this isn't an interesting concept in itself...

Assuming the text didn't declare the above though, I believe that the point was that Abraham was participating in a "Prophetic Drama" that illustrated the sacrifice Jehovah (and his beloved son Jesus) would be willing to make on behalf of mankind. In short to drive home what an incredibly huge sacrifice was going to be made and hw painful that would be for God, which in turn should imprint on the hearts and minds of those that can be touched, how much both JEHOVAH and Jesus love humans and how far they were both willing to go so that humans have the opportunity to live forever. The price couldn't have been higher, the love couldn't have been more.

This may deeply be implying that Jehovah understood that false gods and human sacrifice were the result of the human predicament and that in the understanding Jehovah could see the love and fear and other aspects of the human condition as being part of the overall recipe in that 'soup' which was being externalized into the world through human expression.

Jehovah understood that aspect of the human psyche to which offering the best and most beloved was an outpouring of an expression humans understood as being LOVE.
Motivated by fear, the sacrifice is unacceptable.

Jehovah was more than willing to accommodate those humans who understood LOVE in this way and could therefore respond to it.

[brianbbs67]

Those are some interesting answers...

[Replying to post 2 by Elijah John]

Excellent question.

I have been mulling on it for a few months now...

The tale seems to be told not so much as to illustrate the benevolence and omnicience of God, but rather to glorify Abaham, (and by extention the Jewish people) for his "great faith".

This appears to be a similar understanding that BT and JW are expressing...only of course... in the positive.

An atrocious and disgusting story, and it makes me wonder how many people it has inspired to slaughter their own children "for the good of their souls" or "for their own good" or because "God told them to do so" or "God was testing them".

Maybe just a handful, but even one would be waaaay too many.

This implies that the God would be able to forgive those who - having the same intent as He - did such deeds some deem to be 'atrocious and disgusting'... The intent is the thing under question...

I am struggling with the notion that humans beings actually do have the knowledge of good and evil and can discern altogether what 'atrocious and disgusting' actually is.

It appears to be very much a matter of opinion rather than something which can be pointed to as an actual absolute - scientifically verifiable.

[Replying to post 3 by bluethread]

It was done for Avbraham's benefit and our own. It affirmed to Avraham that he held Adonai in at least as high regard as the deities of the nations...

Only - in what apparent way is Adonai actually any more a better example than 'the deities of the nations' apart from being an actual GOD?
This is what many struggle with comprehending. How is a false [strike]GOD[/strike] god demanding human sacrifice any better than a real GOD demanding human sacrifice?

...and it also establishes that human sacrifice is not acceptable for Adonai's people.

[strike]I struggle with this in terms of such stories hundreds of years after Avbrahamm, in Yeshuas time, people of Avbraham were willing to sacrifice the adulterous in their midst with the belief they had the nod of approval from Adonai.

Perhaps they were not sacrificing these for Adonia but simple culling them from their midst?[/strike]

But wouldn't that really amount to the same thing?

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

.

The highlighted area is what I respond to. This stoning and banishing was as Moses taught them just before he passed. He admonished them to do this to keep evil out of their midst.

I admit I don't know how to use the forum tools correctly yet.

[Elijah John]

It was done for Avbraham's benefit and our own. It affirmed to Avraham that he held Adonai in at least as high regard as the deities of the nations and it also establishes that human sacrifice is not acceptable for Adonai's people.

I agree that was the end result. To teach that human sacrifice is wrong. But couldn't the same have been achieved without attributing the original impuse to human sacrifice to God's "testing" instead of Abraham's own idea as to how to please God?

And God's role was only in the prevention and in the correction?

Such as:

"One day, Abraham had this awful thought that God wanted him to put his beloved son Isaac to the blade in order to please YHVH, just as his forebears had done in order to please their gods. After much turmoil Abraham decided to do what he believed God wanted him to do, and slaughter his son as an offering...(long story short), God corrected him by staying his hand just as Abraham was about to strike and told him "NO, this is not the way to please me..."

Do you think God actually "put Abraham to the test"? OR is it possible (or likely) that the Hebrew storytellers told the tale the way we have it in Genesis so as to glorify Abraham, (and by extention the Hebrew people) for his "great faith"?

I'll ask you two more questions that I have asked others.

1) Is human blood sacrifice sin?

2) Does God ever tempt anyone to sin?

And here's another. Would God ever command something of His people that He condemns the Nations for having practiced?

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 3 by bluethread]

It was done for Avbraham's benefit and our own. It affirmed to Avraham that he held Adonai in at least as high regard as the deities of the nations...

Only - in what apparent way is Adonai actually any more a better example than 'the deities of the nations' apart from being an actual GOD?
This is what many struggle with comprehending. How is a false [strike]GOD[/strike] god demanding human sacrifice any better than a real GOD demanding human sacrifice?

The story shows that Adonai does not want human sacrifice. That is the difference. He stops it from happening. Having Avraham go through the motions is an object lesson for both Avraham and us.

...and it also establishes that human sacrifice is not acceptable for Adonai's people.

I struggle with this in terms of such stories hundreds of years after Avbrahamm, in Yeshuas time, people of Avbraham were willing to sacrifice the adulterous in their midst with the belief they had the nod of approval from Adonai.

Perhaps they were not sacrificing these for Adonia but simple culling them from their midst?

But wouldn't that really amount to the same thing?

No, that would not have been a sacrifice. That would have been a legal judgement, had they done it legally. There are number of violations of HaTorah that were being committed in that incident and Yeshua pointed that out.

[William]

[Replying to post 8 by bluethread]

No, that would not have been a sacrifice. That would have been a legal judgement, had they done it legally. There are number of violations of HaTorah that were being committed in that incident and Yeshua pointed that out.

Yes but what makes it legal? Is it Adonai?

Is it not regarded as sacrifice because it is not done in accordance with the GODs instructions?

Or is it not regarded a sacrifice because the victims are not pure or innocent or the best of the crop?

As to what Yeshua was pointing out, he simply said that whoever is pure and innocent can throw the first stone. Is it then that each person is only allowed to throw one stone? Is it that the legalities Yeshua was pointing out had to do with people understanding the they had no right to judge others when they themselves were guilty?

Was it simply exampling the idea that it is the guilty themselves who go around making proclamations of guilt in others and crying out for their blood - nah, their very lives?

What exactly are these legalities that you say Yeshua was pointing out?

Does Adonai prefer to remain separate from the state?

[Walterbl]

The OT passage itself focuses on Abraham's priority loyalty to YHWH. Jesus' words in Matt 10.37: ""Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me".

A great analysis of the entire story:

http://christianthinktank.com/qkilisak.html