Near Death Experiences of Christians and others.

[William]

I have recently being injecting the idea of afterlife from the perspective of people who have experienced OOBEs and NDEs who for the most part are not Christians and share their experiences in the knowledge that they understand the experience as something which they had a part in creating for themselves.

Now I want to shift that from the non-Christian experiences being shared, to those of Christians who have had the same types of experiences and report back the same types of encounters but who don't always report that they understand their experience(s) to be something of their own creation.

It is my understanding that the experiences are both very similar in nature but also unique to the individual. 'Heavens' and 'hells' are also unique to the individual, but encounters with entities are remarkably similar.

THIS WOMAN DIED TWICE, FIRST WENT TO HELL, THEN EXPERIENCED HEAVEN AND MET JESUS

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In the channel description is the claim "100% PROOF THAT CHRISTIANITY IS THE TRUTH " which - if Christians were to do serious study on the subject of the Astral Realm from the testimonies of those who say they have experienced this, would come to understand that what it shows is that life doesn't end at the death of the body, and that Christianity is not the only religion which believes such and nor are Christians the only ones who have these experiences.

For that matter, many non religious individuals have experienced this, and while it does indeed change their whole outlook on life, and they adopt a more spiritual outlook, they do not see any necessity in suddenly coming to the conclusion that Christianity is 'The Truth' or that they have to become Christians because of their experiences.

The key points of this particular personal testimony are;

✪ She had her first NDE while in a coma, (2008) in which she ended up in a 'dark place' which she describes as extremely terrifying and refers to as 'hell' and accompanied by a feeling of dread and loss.

✪ Upon awakening from her coma, she recounted her experience to her loved ones gathered around her, and there was verification in relation to what she experienced with what they experienced in regard to a particular time in her experience to which she was aware of to do with the particular event she was speaking about, which coincided with the doctors notifying the family that she was dying and asking the family to gather and say their final goodbyes.

✪ This was then regarded as a miracle that she came through and recovered and due to being told a particular church group had been praying for her, she eventually joined that church and became a 'born again' Christian.

✪ In 2011 she fell sick again and was placed into a coma. She experienced an OOBE and this time it was different. She was floating above her body -looking down at it in the hospital bed. She then experienced a male entity join her and the entity was 'as bright as the sun' only looking at him didn't hurt her eyes.

✪ She experience a profound feeling of pure love from this entity - a love she has never felt from anyone in her whole experience, even from her family or parents... she describes the love was for her and was so strong and powerful and she just knew this entity loved her and this also gave her a feeling of being totally safe and protected and at peace.

✪ She says that there was telepathic communication between her and the entity but that she cannot remember what was said to her and she believes that the entity was Jesus himself.

✪ She comments that she is aware of other testimonies from others who have experienced similar encounters with this alternate reality. She also says she believes that she experienced 'a section of hell' rather then 'the whole of hell'. She says the same in regard to her second experience - that she was 'in a part of heaven' but did not see 'all of heaven'.

✪ She ends her testimony stating that 'we don't just die but go somewhere else and that hell is real, heaven is real and Jesus is real.

Now obviously she makes certain assumptions which are connected to her beliefs and these should be taken in that context. Her parting comments generally show what motivates a lot of Christians in relation to their beliefs.

Point being, as anyone can see through a bit of investigating into such stories will begin to see clearly that there is more than meets the eye as the pieces all fit together, re all such stories of such type experiences. Stories which not only are not going to go away or be so easily ignored/swept under the carpet - but will continue to grow in number as more people having them, share them with the world.



Questions for those who are Judaist, Christian or Muslim, are;

1: To what degree do you believe that these experiences are indicative of truth and need to regarded as genuine?

2: In relation to other faiths, where people encounter similar experiences, how does that stand in relation to your own faith in your own particular beliefs re the group/denomination you invest in?

3: In relation to those who are of no particular faith and have similar - life changing experiences, (these ones often become more spiritual but not necessarily develop religious beliefs) how does that stand in relation to your own faith in your own particular beliefs re the group/denomination you invest in?

Thanks.

[JehovahsWitness]

✪ She says that there was telepathic communication between her and the entity but that she cannot remember what was said to her and she believes that the entity was Jesus himself.

Could "the entity" not have been a demon PRETENDING to be Jesus?

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 1 by William]

Questions for those who are Judaist, Christian or Muslim, are;

I'm not any of them, but I used to be a Christian.

To what degree do you believe that these experiences are indicative of truth and need to regarded as genuine?

It's not hard to see how such stories have little to do with reality. To start, note that this girl never mentions purgatory. So "God" for her is a protestant, and her experience presumably falsifies much of Roman Catholic doctrine. In other words, her vision--like she--is sectarian.

Second, she explains that this "out of body" experience involves her body. She says she could see, hear, and feel as if she was in her body. So how could she have been out of her body?

Third, her claim that the invisible man wanted her to return to life to warn us that heaven and hell are real is very odd considering that the invisible man supposedly already told us all about heaven and hell in the Bible. Is the Bible insufficient as a means to warn us?

In relation to other faiths, where people encounter similar experiences, how does that stand in relation to your own faith in your own particular beliefs re the group/denomination you invest in?

Nothing this girl says is very original except perhaps for the "deformed people' she says she saw. She then appears to have experienced something akin to the Christian beliefs she is familiar with. If the invisible man is really granting these visions of the afterlife, then he only seems to bother with Christians or people who know basic Christian doctrines. The invisible man neglects much of the world in which the culture has little or no impact from Christianity. So we can see that these visions originate with people's imaginations and reflect the cultures they live in.

In relation to those who are of no particular faith and have similar - life changing experiences, (these ones often become more spiritual but not necessarily develop religious beliefs) how does that stand in relation to your own faith in your own particular beliefs re the group/denomination you invest in?

If we assume that people make up their own gods, then they would have different visions of the afterlife. Since these visions are peculiar to the beliefs of those who experience them, then these visions are probably the product of the mind.

[Jagella]

Could "the entity" not have been a demon PRETENDING to be Jesus?

Oh sure. It's possible that the Jesus in the vision was a demon. It's often hard to tell Jesus from a demon. Heck, the Biblical Jesus could have been a demon.

In any case, people tend to demonize religions they do not belong to. Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that there is any life after death prior to the general resurrection, and any visions of heaven or hell must be either a lie on the part of those who testify to these visions or the work of demons.

How do demons pull off such "deceptions"? Do they have some access to a person near death and put on a show that contradicts Watchtower theology?

[marco]

1: To what degree do you believe that these experiences are indicative of truth and need to regarded as genuine?

I have a healthy respect for reports of experiences that we can't readily explain. Two very close friends, astrophysicists, had an odd experience in a hotel room. Both saw some phantom person and the manager was not surprised, others having had the experience. They don't believe in the supernatural and simply say they have no expanation.

On near death experiences or people returning, having apparently died, a religious flavour is often given if the subject was immersed in a religious background. Little children often encounter Jesus, presumably recognising him from his pictures.


I accept there are dimensions beyond our own; I've used multi-dimensional ideas in mathematics. Perhaps religion and superstition block our proper understanding and we all too readily attempt to explain the inexplicable through reference to God or the devil. We tend to give ourselves credit for an understanding at odds with our vast ignorance.

[Kapyong]

Gday all,

There is something going on, but it's not clear what.

Note that when a person has a supernatural experience of meeting a heavenly being, they always 'see' a deity or being from their own tradition -
*Christian westerners see Jesus or Mary, maybe an angel,
*Hindus see Krishna, maybe a deva
*Buddhists see Buddha,
etc.

No reports of Christians meeting Zeus, or Hindus meeting Jesus


Kapyong

[William]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

Could "the entity" not have been a demon PRETENDING to be Jesus?

How is that not paranoia in the face of the evidence, such as it is?

If one is unable to discern a demon from the being the woman says she engaged with, how is one to trust anything, either in vision or in writ... or for that matter, writ about vision?

One cannot defend even their own GOD if one cannot discern any obvious distinction between those doing the work of GOD and those doing the work of the Devil.

Did you watch the video? What about the woman makes you think she could be deceived by 'a demon PRETENDING to be Jesus'?

Also, why would a 'a demon PRETENDING to be Jesus' do this if all that it achieved was the woman becoming a Christian?

After reading your one-liner, it got me wondering if any JWs had experienced NDEs, and yes of course they have.

One had this to say;

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From the audio:
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"I didn't believe in life after death - much less that there was a conscious spirit that would come out of the body when people died. I didn't believe in any kind of miracles nor healings and I didn't believe either that GOD could talk to people through visions or dreams I believed that all kinds of healing and miracles and vision and dreams were THE WORK OF THE DEVIL. I was very loyal to these teachings and nobody could convince me of the contrary."[/font]

Despite these beliefs, the woman has an NDE while being operated on and ends up in a dark place and feels tormented just by that.



From the audio.
The woman heard a group of voices telling her that she was experiencing the NDE so that it might help her believe and the woman responded that she only believed in Jehovah the almighty GOD.
Then there was a silence, Then the torment she was feeling, stopped.
Then she started to return to the hospital room and placed back inside her body...
She couldn't get the experience out of her mind and she began to think that the JW organisation had deceived her. She now knows through experience that there is a conscious 'spirit' which 'comes out of the body'
She is concerned that those who believe that once they die then that is the end of them will die and perhaps experience the same dark tormenting place that she had, only they will never come back.


From the audio.
Her health deteriorated due to various complications and she felt like she was in the process of dying.
She called on Jehovah. She didn't believe in Jesus (as someone to pray to) She had learned that she was a spirit in a body but did not believe in Jesus Christ.
The next morning she was even weaker and got up but fell down and was very scared and asked Jehovah to give her the courage to die and then suddenly saw a lady standing right in front of her. She recognized the lady as a neighbor of hers who went to another denomination.
Then she heard a voice saying 'go to her' to which she argued that she would not humiliate herself before someone from another denomination and the voice told her to go to the lady while she had the opportunity because she was going to die so she decided to go to the ladies house but not to ask for prayer of healing or miracles because she did not believe in such things.
She got to the ladies house and told the lady that she wanted the lady to pray to GOD to give her courage to die. The lady told her that Jesus was going to heal her so that she could believe in him. The lady sent her home telling her to pray to Jesus and that she would also pray to Jesus and that she would be healed - quoting James 5: 14.

The lady prayed to Jesus and was healed.

The lady claimed that the JWs had deceived her by telling her she could not pray to Jesus for healing.



In this final audio the woman expresses her testimony of being healed, of being 'filled with the Holy Spirit' 'speaking in tongues' and also had an OOBE in which she thought she had died and saw her body lying on the bed and realized she had another body. She did not want to leave her children and prayed that GOD would let her live and she felt herself being lifted and placed back into her body on the bed.

Are these the things to which the JW organisation regard as 'demons PRETENDING to be Jesus'?

Is this woman's experience - or even my own - trumped by the doctrines of the JW organization, simply because they decide that the experiences 'could be entities which are demons PRETENDING to be Jesus?'

From my own experiences, there is no way someone knocking on my door giving me their particular take on interpretations of the bible qualify as anything which could - as objective opinion - override the actuality of the experiences and the intimate significance such have had on my own subjective experience and convince me that 'demons' were behind that.

It would be great to get other perspectives from the Christians and other theists on this board. Sure - there are plenty of testimonies on the internet pertaining to NDEs and OOBEs which anyone can access, but has any theist on this board ever had such an experience that they are willing to share and say what they think it meant to them?

Plus - to reiterate the OPQ's;

1: To what degree do you believe that these experiences are indicative of truth and need to regarded as genuine?

2: In relation to other faiths, where people encounter similar experiences, how does that stand in relation to your own faith in your own particular beliefs re the group/denomination you invest in?

3: In relation to those who are of no particular faith and have similar - life changing experiences, (these ones often become more spiritual but not necessarily develop religious beliefs) how does that stand in relation to your own faith in your own particular beliefs re the group/denomination you invest in?

[Donray]

First off, no one has seen God for a few thousands of years.

Second God does not do anything to aid any human. Free will remember?

Third, no one has any proof that out of body is real. What leaves the body? What is it made of? How much does it weight?

[William]

[Replying to post 5 by marco]

I have a healthy respect for reports of experiences that we can't readily explain. Two very close friends, astrophysicists, had an odd experience in a hotel room. Both saw some phantom person and the manager was not surprised, others having had the experience. They don't believe in the supernatural and simply say they have no expanation.

No explaination is sometime the best course to take.

The above experience does not seem to have come about through OOBEs or NDEs which is specific to the tread subject and focus.
With OOBEs or NDEs those experiencing such do have some things to go on which helps them explain their experience to themselves somewhat like they would any experience we can have in this experience we are currently having...the wakened state in the physical universe.

On near death experiences or people returning, having apparently died, a religious flavour is often given if the subject was immersed in a religious background. Little children often encounter Jesus, presumably recognising him from his pictures.

Yes. In groups where people are not religious at all but have experienced these things, they understand what is going on in that context. They entities vary in form according to individual expectations but are generally felt as other-worldly - greatly wise and knowing, intimate with the individuals thoughts and feelings and sometimes referred to as "GOD" anyway, but not in a religious way - but just in relation to what is experienced as a way of putting words to it that can be shared with others.

I accept there are dimensions beyond our own; I've used multi-dimensional ideas in mathematics. Perhaps religion and superstition block our proper understanding and we all too readily attempt to explain the inexplicable through reference to God or the devil. We tend to give ourselves credit for an understanding at odds with our vast ignorance.

My own experience is slightly different in that a being came to me rather than I went to some other dimension, although the best description of the events I think most accurate is that the dimension overlapped/superimposed into my awareness.

As to my expectation, it was fully to the fore re the experiences, and if not for an anomaly I would have been left thinking 'demonic attack' of some sort and with that drifted onto another path than the one I did choose...

The anomaly forced me to reconsider a great deal of preemptive barriers of thought and belief shaped in formative years. I was acutely aware of the need this created for me to work it out very carefully because I was aware in the moment that I was indeed vastly ignorant and since I wanted to understand, I had to dissect the experience in every detail and find a way in which to reconcile the oxymoron therein, and do so with upmost respect for the experiences I had prior to that one and also ones I have had since...which means I was acutely aware of the necessity to be honest and not elaborate. Stick with the facts and do not deviate. That was all of 30 years ago and I have also done a great deal of study of others who share their OOBEs or NDEs - which are far more common than most might suspect.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

Could "the entity" not have been a demon PRETENDING to be Jesus?

How is that not paranoia in the face of the evidence, such as it is?

I don't think it's paranoia to examine all possible options, even if those options might be conceived as negative. If demons exist, what's to stop them impersonating a person's dead husband and saying "I love you and will always be with you. Oh and the life insurance policy is under my chessbox in the library"?