Killing in the Bible and Tanakh

[Atef]

Is this killing of children right?

[Tcg]

Is this killing of children right?

It may help the discussion to progress if you specify which killings you are referring to. You mention killing in the Bible and Tanakh, but don't specify which killings to be considered in addressing your question.

[Atef]

2nd Commandment of the— Ten Commandments

 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."

Critique: What justice, moderation and fairness can be discerned from the collective punishment of innocent adults and children found in the 2nd Commandment?

He is a "jealous God"—he will visit the "iniquity"--- "of fathers upon children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate him"—he will show mercy to people who love him. This is called collective punishment:

Critique: Definition of iniquity (n) 1. injustice or immorality: great injustice or extreme immorality 2. immoral act: a grossly immoral act: Synonyms: immorality, heinousness, evil, injustice, crime, wickedness, sin, vice

Source: http://www.learningspy.co.uk/behaviour/ ... unishment/

There’s one minor drawback though: it’s a war crime specifically forbidden under the fourth Geneva Convention.

Article 33. No persons may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited

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[Atef]

[Replying to post 2 by Tcg]


Whether it's 2,821,364 or 2,270,365 or 2,476,636 the numbers are on the low side because it does not include the numbers God killed during the flood, Sodom and Gamorrah or the first born in Egypt. That could raise the total to a estimated: 7,000,000,000 to 19,000,000,000.

Is this killing, especially the killing of children morally justified?


Source: http://www.ldolphin.org/pickett.html__Source: https://christianity.stackexchange.com/ ... -the-flood

"Although it is difficult to obtain an actual value of world population at the time of the flood, 5 to17 billion people would appear to be reasonable populations, with an average of around 10 billion."

Below are links to sites that list the scriptures that describe the actual killing with number killed and estimate killed.

Source: https://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.co ... -bible.htm

Source: http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/godkills.htm

Source: https://www.wired.com/2007/04/old-testament-m/

https://www.bethinking.org/bible/old-te ... s-killings

"......Even for people who are convinced that the Bible is true and represents God’s revelation of Himself these accounts can be deeply troubling, especially when one thinks about the death of innocent children."

Exodus 12:29-30 states: And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh... and all the firstborn of cattle....and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not dead.

II Samuel 12:14-15 and 18 states: "Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.....And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick....And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died

.

I Kings 14: 16-18 states: "And he shall give Israel up because of the sins of Jeroboam, who did sin, and who made Israel to sin. And Jeroboam's wife arose, and departed, and came to...Tirzah: and when she came to the threshold of the door, the child died; And they buried him; and all Israel mourned for him, according to the word of the LORD,

Leviticus 10: 1-2 states: "And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD."

II Kings 2:23-24 states: "...there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD....And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."

Numbers 16: 27-33 states: "......and Dathan and Abiram came out, and stood in the door of their tents...and their wives, and their sons, and their little children...And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, ......and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation."

[Atef]

[Replying to post 2 by Tcg]



Whether it's 2,821,364 or 2,270,365 or 2,476,636 the numbers are on the low side because it does not include the numbers God killed during the flood, Sodom and Gamorrah or the first born in Egypt. That could raise the total to a estimated: 7,000,000,000 to 19,000,000,000.

Is this killing, especially the killing of children morally justified?

Source: http://www.ldolphin.org/pickett.html

Source: https://christianity.stackexchange.com/ ... -the-flood

"Although it is difficult to obtain an actual value of world population at the time of the flood, 5 to17 billion people would appear to be reasonable populations, with an average of around 10 billion."

Below are links to sites that list the scriptures that describe the actual killing with number killed and estimate killed.

https://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.co ... bible.html

Source: http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/godkills.htm

Source: https://www.wired.com/2007/04/old-testament-m/

https://www.bethinking.org/bible/old-te ... s-killings

"......Even for people who are convinced that the Bible is true and represents God’s revelation of Himself these accounts can be deeply troubling, especially when one thinks about the death of innocent children."

Exodus 12:29-30 states: And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh... and all the firstborn of cattle....and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not dead.

II Samuel 12:14-15 and 18 states: "Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.....And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick....And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died.

I Kings 14: 16-18 states: "And he shall give Israel up because of the sins of Jeroboam, who did sin, and who made Israel to sin. And Jeroboam's wife arose, and departed, and came to...Tirzah: and when she came to the threshold of the door, the child died; And they buried him; and all Israel mourned for him, according to the word of the LORD

Leviticus 10: 1-2 states: "And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD."

II Kings 2:23-24 states: "...there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD....And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."[

Numbers 16: 27-33 states: "......and Dathan and Abiram came out, and stood in the door of their tents...and their wives, and their sons, and their little children...And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, ......and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation."

[bluethread]

2nd Commandment of the— Ten Commandments

 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."

Critique: What justice, moderation and fairness can be discerned from the collective punishment of innocent adults and children found in the 2nd Commandment?

He is a "jealous God"—he will visit the "iniquity"--- "of fathers upon children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate him"—he will show mercy to people who love him. This is called collective punishment:

Critique: Definition of iniquity (n) 1. injustice or immorality: great injustice or extreme immorality 2. immoral act: a grossly immoral act: Synonyms: immorality, heinousness, evil, injustice, crime, wickedness, sin, vice

Source: http://www.learningspy.co.uk/behaviour/ ... unishment/

There’s one minor drawback though: it’s a war crime specifically forbidden under the fourth Geneva Convention.

Article 33. No persons may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited

[/url]

Yes, the consequences of actions resonate beyond the person doing the action and the time it was done. Regarding the Geneva convention, why is this a proper standard for judging all o history, let alone the actins of a deity?

[Atef]

The Bible and Tanakh of Judaism are extremely violent books, that preach love and compassion in one scripture, then the supreme God carries out mass murder and genocide against innocent humans, especially children and babies. This is hypocrisy.

From my encounters with believers of Christianity and Judaism their only response is to unconditionally support the collective punishment i.e. genocide against innocent people, especially children and babies.

No person with an upright moral compass, under any circumstances or time, would think that murdering humans, especially children and babies is right.

It's amazing how many believers of Christianity and Judaism are anti-abortion, yet support a God that murders innocent children and babies by the millions outside the womb.

The Geneva Convention position on Collective Punishment that leads to death is right. Whether Collective Punishment occurs in real life or the Bible and Tanakh-- it is wrong and a act of terrorism.

This moral right vs. wrong contradiction regarding collective punishment that leads to the death of innocent children and babies (among many other contradictions, scientific errors, biological errors, historical errors and copied history of others), is one reason why many people like myself believe that all religions are man-made and mythological.

Thank Goodness collective punishment in the Bible and Tanakh is mythological. Unfortunately in real life religious based concepts like "Manifest Destiny" have led to collective punishment being used in the colonization and genocide of native populations around the world.

[bluethread]

No person with an upright moral compass, under any circumstances or time, would think that murdering humans, especially children and babies is right.

Murder is immoral by definition. However, if your assertion is speaking of killing, one would have to say that few, if any, societies have been composed of people "with an upright moral compass".

It's amazing how many believers of Christianity and Judaism are anti-abortion, yet support a God that murders innocent children and babies by the millions outside the womb.

Again, what makes those deaths murder and how does one apply that to the actions of a deity?

The Geneva Convention position on Collective Punishment that leads to death is right. Whether Collective Punishment occurs in real life or the Bible and Tanakh-- it is wrong and a act of terrorism.

According to whom? What make's that right, the fact that certain stable countries agree to it?

This moral right vs. wrong contradiction regarding collective punishment that leads to the death of innocent children and babies (among many other contradictions, scientific errors, biological errors, historical errors and copied history of others), is one reason why many people like myself believe that all religions are man-made and mythological.

Ok, your pacifist dogma and modern scientifci bias leads you to that opinion.

Thank Goodness collective punishment in the Bible and Tanakh is mythological. Unfortunately in real life religious based concepts like "Manifest Destiny" have led to collective punishment being used in the colonization and genocide of native populations around the world.

So, is there supposed to be some kind of connection here?

[Tcg]

No person with an upright moral compass, under any circumstances or time, would think that murdering humans, especially children and babies is right.

You are absolutely right. Of course rather than admitting this fact, you'll experience theists who ask you to justify this fact.

They seem to think that is a more important discussion rather than the absolute immorality displayed time and time again by Bible God.

It's the same as the owners of a violent dog who don't care if their beast bites the neighbor's children. As long as they believe their monster will never harm them, they don't care what atrocities it will commit against their fellow humans.

I suspect you've already encountered theists such as this. Perhaps even on this very thread.

[Atef]

This post is in reference to the God of Christianity and Judaism engaging in mass genocide against innocent people especially, children and babies; and whether it is right or wrong.

The "I got caught with my fingers in the cookie jar but Mom, Johnny took cookies to"; does not excuse the "wrong" of collective punishment which leads to the death of innocent people, including children and babies.

I would even go a step further and assert that there has never been a time on this Earth, where humans have not engaged in violence and murder against other humans.

All the dominant world religions are extremely violent not just Christianity and Judaism, but Islam and Hinduism are just as--if not more violent. Besides the violent and discriminatory scriptures, the myth of these two dominant world religions are associated with long and brutal wars waged by Muhammad and Krishna.

You apply it to a diety because the genocide and crimes against humanity are committed by the diety or the myth associated with the diety. I believe we are talking about the writings of men. Just because it is believed and assigned to a diety, is not an inoculation or exemption that is warranted or deserved.

The Geneva Covention is right however:

Let's just apply this to our own families. If myself or you got into a physical altercation with someone, and they sought retribution by killing us, our wife/girlfriend, children, grandchildren, Mother, Father, Uncle, Aunt etc etc...I think that would be wrong. Same thing on a massive level as contained in the scriptures of Judaism and Christianity--no diety exemption.

One does not need the Geneva Covention to define war crimes, terrorism or crimes against humanity; adhering to the principles of respect for life, equal justice, fairness, decency and the old saying " Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is all humans need.

Besides some of the worst imperialist and hypocritical countries are associated with the Geneva Convention.

No truly benevolent, loving and caring supreme diety if one did exist, would engage in violence at all, it is inconsistent with being benevolent, loving and caring. However as you alluded to men will engage in mass violence; and there can be a strong argument that no society has claim to being violence free--or of having an unimpeachable upright moral compass.

Answer to your question is No. Here is just one example of a major biological error in the Bible: Jesus as he was about to asscend into heaven told his believers and those who were baptized in his name, that they could drink poison and take up deadly snakes and nothing would happen to them. That is biologically not true.

In fact there are actual laws on the book for making false and misleading statements that lead to the harm or death of someone. Also, as I am sure you know people (preacher snake handlers) have died because they believed that myth of Jesus. Just wondering 🙄 if Jesus did return to Earth could he face charges? 😊

Yes there is a direct connection in what a person or country believes regarding a mythical religion (and what that religion sanctions)--and what that believing person or country does in real life.

The Tanakh of Judaism and especially the Bible read like an operational manual with instructions and guidelines for the enslavement of humans and the beating and killing of slaves, including children. Some of the biggest supporters and financial benefactors of slavery in America were found in the pulpit on Sunday and specific denominations like the Catholic Church etc etc etc....

Teaching or indoctrinating slaves into Christianity was used as the moral justification for slavery. Saving the heathen and savage slaves spiritual soul outweighed and excused the physical enslavement.

"Manifest Destiny" was the moral divine guidance used in the genocide of Native Americans and taking by force their land.