Who's the terrorist?

Nirvana-Eld · Post by **Nirvana-Eld** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:12 am

Ok I have been thouroughly disgusted by the American Media and their coverage of this latest war in the Middle East. So, naturally, I turn to you for your opinions.

Given the circumstances under which Israel has invaded the Gaza Strip and Lebanon and the manner in which they are conducting the invasion and the tactics used, I would say that Israel is in fact terroristic towards the civilians in the respective areas.

I won't dive into too much detail yet, I would rather see your opinions first and hopefully start a good discussion if not a heated debate.

Cephus · Post by **Cephus** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:55 am

I've always thought we needed a few good-sized nukes dropped on Israel, or maybe a nice asteroid falling on Jerusalem. I have no love for Israel whatsoever. Not that I have any more for the Palestinians, mind you, they all act like a bunch of spoiled children.

Nuke 'em all. Let their respective gods sort 'em out.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:56 am

I cannot support the extreme position taken by Cephus. However, I think that the seemingly unending unrest in the Middle East is related to the lack of official secularism. Many states in the Middle East simply cannot seem to make a separation of supernaturalist religions and governments.

youngborean · Post by **youngborean** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:55 pm

I think it is more usefull to not look at one side as terrorist and the other as occupier etc. I think the simplest way to look at it is 2 groups with divergant ethinic and religious origins at war. This is how it always had been. The terrorism of Hamas/Hizbollah/Islamic Jihad have always been acts of war. Israel has always maintained that they are constantly at war. The surrounding countries make the opportunity for this war to continue without taking responsibility for it. In war there are always civilian casualties, that is why war is horrible. The ethical questions beyond that (if there are any ethics possibly left over)is whether civilians are the direct target. I really think the whole thing sucks, but making it out as a battle between good and evil (terrorist and non-terrorist) on either side will run into logical problems.

Nirvana-Eld · Post by **Nirvana-Eld** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:57 pm

I have no love for Israel whatsoever. Not that I have any more for the Palestinians, mind you, they all act like a bunch of spoiled children.

I agree wholeheartedly, except for your rather brash nuclear option

. Both sides tend to act more innocent then they really are when in fact in this particular situation, there is no innocence.

I cannot support the extreme position taken by Cephus. However, I think that the seemingly unending unrest in the Middle East is related to the lack of official secularism. Many states in the Middle East simply cannot seem to make a separation of supernaturalist religions and governments.

I think that is part of the problem, but not the whole or even most of it. In part, I think it ties back to the "blame game" and pointing fingers at who's done what. The bigger issue is the inability and lack of real communication and negotiation between the two sides. I think the lack of secularism takes a back seat here.

The ethical questions beyond that (if there are any ethics possibly left over)is whether civilians are the direct target.

The answer is yes on both sides. Hamas and Hezbollah make no distinction between soldier and civilian in their suicide bombings and likewise Israel makes not distinction, in how it conducts its military operations, between terrorist and civilian. Remember that Israel has thousands of Palestinian women and children (civilians as a whole) captive, being detained without trial.

but making it out as a battle between good and evil (terrorist and non-terrorist) on either side will run into logical problems.

Agreed. I'm not pitting terrorist against sweet innocent angel. I'm pitting wrong against wrong. Bad against Bad. Terrorist against terrorist. Israel against Palestine. Neither side innocent and neither side in total blame.

Cathar1950 · Post by **Cathar1950** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:30 pm

I guess they are all terrorist.
I can almost see a final battle between two fundamentalist groups America and it’s right-wing believers and the fundamentalist in the Middle East.
It will not get better until one side wins and declines from its own weight.
They (whoever) blow up a couple of building and we start a crusade over less death then we get from natural disasters and incompetence killing men, women and children by the thousands while perfectly willing to renounce our freedoms out of fear.

There are all these prophecies concerning the temple where all the nations gather to learn of the “Lord”. Which temple (The Mosk of the Dome of the Rock) has been there the longest? Is this not a sign from God?

I think Mac is right we need to keep it secular.

Cephus · Post by **Cephus** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:05 pm

Nirvana-Eld wrote:I agree wholeheartedly, except for your rather brash nuclear option . Both sides tend to act more innocent then they really are when in fact in this particular situation, there is no innocence.

There's never been any innocence. Both sides have been in the wrong since 1947 and Israel is costing us a hell of a lot of money to support when they simply don't deserve it. There are enough pricks in the Middle East already, we didn't need to drop the Jews there because we felt guilty for WWII.

The answer is yes on both sides. Hamas and Hezbollah make no distinction between soldier and civilian in their suicide bombings and likewise Israel makes not distinction, in how it conducts its military operations, between terrorist and civilian. Remember that Israel has thousands of Palestinian women and children (civilians as a whole) captive, being detained without trial.

The Arabs don't care about civilian and soldier because they're not fighting a military action. They are fighting against the Jews, period. The Muslims will not stop until every Jewish man, woman and child is dead, or until every Muslim man, woman and child is dead. That's the very core of this conflict and nothing anyone does is going to change it.

Unfortunately, you're dealing with two irrational groups that can't be reasoned with because religion doesn't comprehend reason.

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:15 am

Cephus wrote:
Nirvana-Eld wrote:I agree wholeheartedly, except for your rather brash nuclear option . Both sides tend to act more innocent then they really are when in fact in this particular situation, there is no innocence.
There's never been any innocence. Both sides have been in the wrong since 1947 and Israel is costing us a hell of a lot of money to support when they simply don't deserve it. There are enough pricks in the Middle East already, we didn't need to drop the Jews there because we felt guilty for WWII.
I don't think I have ever agreed with something Cephus said more than this. However these things happened before most of us were born and as usual we have to find an answer for the problems they created. The easiest solution would be to have the U.N. to call the entire area an international religious monument under only the U.N.'s control. Of course that won't happen because each religious group considers the area it's own sole religious area. Kinda scary but neither group will be happy until an Armageddon like conflict comes about that will kill everyone in the area.

The Arabs don't care about civilian and soldier because they're not fighting a military action. They are fighting against the Jews, period. The Muslims will not stop until every Jewish man, woman and child is dead, or until every Muslim man, woman and child is dead. That's the very core of this conflict and nothing anyone does is going to change it.

Unfortunately, you're dealing with two irrational groups that can't be reasoned with because religion doesn't comprehend reason.
Sad but true, which is why although it's extreme throwing an asteroid down on the area will be the only way to stop the cycle of violence, otherwise it will keep sparking up, the latest because Iran is feeling it's oats, Hezbollah being completely funded by Iran.

Cephus · Post by **Cephus** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:18 pm

Wyvern wrote:Sad but true, which is why although it's extreme throwing an asteroid down on the area will be the only way to stop the cycle of violence, otherwise it will keep sparking up, the latest because Iran is feeling it's oats, Hezbollah being completely funded by Iran.

I figure the only way to stop both sides fighting over their "holy land" is to have an "act of God" take out said land. Heck, might as well take out all of the holy sites with multiple strikes. If nothing else, it'll throw them into confusion over what to do next and if they're confused, at least they won't be shooting at each other.

Cathar1950 · Post by **Cathar1950** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:15 pm

I say we turn the whole are into an amusement park. Reenactments and all.