“The Massacre of the Innocents is the biblical account of infanticide by Herod the Great, the Roman-appointed King of the Jews. According to the Gospel of Matthew,[1] Herod ordered the execution of all young male children in the vicinity of Bethlehem, so as to avoid the loss of his throne to a newborn King of the Jews whose birth had been announced to him by the Magi. In typical Matthean style, it is understood as the fulfillment of an Old Testament prophecy:[2]
Then was fulfilled that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet, saying, "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more.[3]
The number of infants killed is not stated�
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_ ... istoricity
The number of inhabitants of Bethlehem at the time would have been about 300 people with the number of 2 years and younger would have been 6 or 7.
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/20 ... px#Article
NB Actually, Rachael was crying for the northern Israelites taken into the Babylonian Captivity about 600 years before the slaughter of the innocent. But Matthew created a number of prophecy fulfillments.
The dates, numbers of deportations, and numbers of deportees given in the biblical accounts vary.[2] These deportations are dated to 597 BCE for the first, with others dated at 587/586 BCE, and 582/581 BCE respectively
Matthew invents another prophecy fulfillment.
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Re: Matthew invents another prophecy fulfillment.
Post #2[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]
The theme of prophecy fulfilled runs throughout Matthew's Gospel.
The flight to and return from Egypt was also prophesied : That he will be called a Nazarene.
"19 After Herod died, an angel of the Lord suddenly appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, 20 saying, “Get up! Take the child and His mother and go to the land of Israel, because those who sought the child’s life are dead.� 21 So he got up, took the child and His mother, and entered the land of Israel. 22 But when he heard that Archelaus[k] was ruling over Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. And being warned in a dream, he withdrew to the region of Galilee. 23 Then he went and settled in a town called Nazareth to fulfill what was spoken through the prophets, that He will be called a Nazarene."
The theme of prophecy fulfilled runs throughout Matthew's Gospel.
The flight to and return from Egypt was also prophesied : That he will be called a Nazarene.
"19 After Herod died, an angel of the Lord suddenly appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, 20 saying, “Get up! Take the child and His mother and go to the land of Israel, because those who sought the child’s life are dead.� 21 So he got up, took the child and His mother, and entered the land of Israel. 22 But when he heard that Archelaus[k] was ruling over Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. And being warned in a dream, he withdrew to the region of Galilee. 23 Then he went and settled in a town called Nazareth to fulfill what was spoken through the prophets, that He will be called a Nazarene."
Re: Matthew invents another prophecy fulfillment.
Post #3[Replying to polonius.advice]
The slaughter of a half dozen or fewer infants (probably an accurate number) might not have been worth mentioning in a historical sense, especially compared to an event like the exile. However, it would certainly have been important to those who lived through it.
The author of Matthew often took prophesies that had meaning in their original setting and claimed that they had additional meaning in the life of Christ.
What is your point?
The slaughter of a half dozen or fewer infants (probably an accurate number) might not have been worth mentioning in a historical sense, especially compared to an event like the exile. However, it would certainly have been important to those who lived through it.
The author of Matthew often took prophesies that had meaning in their original setting and claimed that they had additional meaning in the life of Christ.
What is your point?
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo
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brianbbs67
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Post #4
Well, Matthew was originally called "The sayings of Yesuah, Christ". It was not called Matthew until at least 135. And the author is unknown, still. It was a collection of Christ's quotes. The "Beatitudes"(sermon on the mount) is thought by most scholars to have Not happened at once but merely a collection of Jesus' Proverbs. Doesn't mean discount them, but know their origin. Origin was a guy, right? 
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ttruscott
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Post #5
Origen wrote the first encyclopedic systematic theology of the Christian religion.brianbbs67 wrote: Doesn't mean discount them, but know their origin. Origin was a guy, right?
WIKI:
He was a prolific writer who wrote roughly 2,000 treatises in multiple branches of theology, including textual criticism, biblical exegesis and biblical hermeneutics, homiletics, and spirituality. He was one of the most influential figures in early Christian theology, apologetics, and asceticism.[3][4] He has been described as "the greatest genius the early church ever produced".[5]
He also repudiated both traducianism (the spirit created at conception by conception) and creationism of the soul (the creation of a new spirit at the birth of each person) in favour of our pre-conception existence in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe.
He was apparently moved to this conclusion by the verse, Jacob I loved but Esau I hated in reference to their existence, allowing that GOD could not arbitrarily hate or love anyone without their causing that response by their actions.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
Re: Matthew invents another prophecy fulfillment.
Post #6RESPONSE: Isn't that only Matthew's version that Luke doesn't support. Nor do Mark or John. "Then he went and settled in a town called Nazareth. Actually, wasn't the holy family already supposed to have been settled there before they went to pay their taxes.?dio9 wrote: [Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]
The theme of prophecy fulfilled runs throughout Matthew's Gospel.
The flight to and return from Egypt was also prophesied : That he will be called a Nazarene.
"19 After Herod died, an angel of the Lord suddenly appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, 20 saying, “Get up! Take the child and His mother and go to the land of Israel, because those who sought the child’s life are dead.� 21 So he got up, took the child and His mother, and entered the land of Israel. 22 But when he heard that Archelaus[k] was ruling over Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. And being warned in a dream, he withdrew to the region of Galilee. 23 Then he went and settled in a town called Nazareth to fulfill what was spoken through the prophets, that He will be called a Nazarene."
Do you know how to tell fact from fiction in a writing? And how many years after the fact was this written? And how would the writer know the story 80 years after the event?
Re: Matthew invents another prophecy fulfillment.
Post #7[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]
Yes, truly understanding scripture means truly understanding, as much as is possible, what the author means and what theological message he is communicating. For this, we have the tools of critical biblical studies, form/text criticism, linguistics and even, sometimes, archaeology.
From such study it has been concluded that Matthew and all the other canonical Gospels freely utilize "midrashic" methodology in presenting and interpreting prophecies, events and characters from the Jewish Bible. The Evangelists are, uncomfortably enough, not above targeting some Jewish scripture, and either out of carelessness or outright mendaciousness, misapplying it to Jesus, his teachings, and supposed events in his life. This has led some scholars to observe that in much of its theology, the New Testament is a "disaster area" with its rapacious ransacking of the Jewish scriptures that the authors used to create a false message on the behalf of an invented Christ.
It was precisely because of this bogus "Jewish prophecy fulfilled" textual manipulation that the Jews then-and-now know that the Gospel Jesus could never be the Jewish Messiah, for the simple reason that his "biographers" utterly misrepresented and mutilated Hebrew Messianic prophecies and ineptly tried to attach them to Jesus.
Yes, truly understanding scripture means truly understanding, as much as is possible, what the author means and what theological message he is communicating. For this, we have the tools of critical biblical studies, form/text criticism, linguistics and even, sometimes, archaeology.
From such study it has been concluded that Matthew and all the other canonical Gospels freely utilize "midrashic" methodology in presenting and interpreting prophecies, events and characters from the Jewish Bible. The Evangelists are, uncomfortably enough, not above targeting some Jewish scripture, and either out of carelessness or outright mendaciousness, misapplying it to Jesus, his teachings, and supposed events in his life. This has led some scholars to observe that in much of its theology, the New Testament is a "disaster area" with its rapacious ransacking of the Jewish scriptures that the authors used to create a false message on the behalf of an invented Christ.
It was precisely because of this bogus "Jewish prophecy fulfilled" textual manipulation that the Jews then-and-now know that the Gospel Jesus could never be the Jewish Messiah, for the simple reason that his "biographers" utterly misrepresented and mutilated Hebrew Messianic prophecies and ineptly tried to attach them to Jesus.
Re: Matthew invents another prophecy fulfillment.
Post #8[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]
Does anyone know what prophets said he will be called a Nazarene?
Matthew 2:23
"Then he went and settled in a town called Nazareth to fulfill what was spoken through the prophets, that He will be called a Nazarene."
I've been wondering is this a mis-translation of Nazarite? I don't see why coming from the town of Nazareth would be prophet worthy.
Being a Nazarite however would be. I doubt the village of Nazareth even existed at the time of the prophets. There are Many NT references point for the possibility of Jesus being the leader of the Nazarite sect. The last supper vow not to drink wine again until the kingdom comes for one . One of the vows was not to drink wine until the vow was fulfilled..(see Numbers 6:1-21)
So who were the prophets?
Does anyone know what prophets said he will be called a Nazarene?
Matthew 2:23
"Then he went and settled in a town called Nazareth to fulfill what was spoken through the prophets, that He will be called a Nazarene."
I've been wondering is this a mis-translation of Nazarite? I don't see why coming from the town of Nazareth would be prophet worthy.
Being a Nazarite however would be. I doubt the village of Nazareth even existed at the time of the prophets. There are Many NT references point for the possibility of Jesus being the leader of the Nazarite sect. The last supper vow not to drink wine again until the kingdom comes for one . One of the vows was not to drink wine until the vow was fulfilled..(see Numbers 6:1-21)
So who were the prophets?
Re: Matthew invents another prophecy fulfillment.
Post #9RESPONSE: There is no such prophecy in the Old Testament. Nor is there any mention of a town called Nazareth.dio9 wrote: [Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]
Does anyone know what prophets said he will be called a Nazarene?
Matthew 2:23
"Then he went and settled in a town called Nazareth to fulfill what was spoken through the prophets, that He will be called a Nazarene."
I've been wondering is this a mis-translation of Nazarite? I don't see why coming from the town of Nazareth would be prophet worthy.
Being a Nazarite however would be. I doubt the village of Nazareth even existed at the time of the prophets. There are Many NT references point for the possibility of Jesus being the leader of the Nazarite sect. The last supper vow not to drink wine again until the kingdom comes for one . One of the vows was not to drink wine until the vow was fulfilled..(see Numbers 6:1-21)
So who were the prophets?
Keeping in mind that all scripture is supposedly "God breathed" we just have to realize God (or Matthew) made errors!
