Mystical Visions, Apparitions

[steveb1]

[LONG post to follow:]

I don't want to irritate anyone with this question, since it's pretty obvious that Catholics and Protestants have a very different view and experience of mystical experiences, revelations, apparitions and "visions". But I think it's an intriguing enough issue to merit at least some discussion.

Catholicism, of course, famously or infamously, claims many mystics, saints who are purportedly endowed with paranormal gifts, reports of visions of saints - especially Mary and Marian apparitions - and of Jesus (e.g., the Sacred Heart visions/revelations). It's important to realize that the RCC does not mandate that Catholics accept any such extra-biblical encounter as authentic and binding. That decision is left to the individual Catholic. The Church only goes so far as to declare an apparition free from fraud and/or doctrinal error, but it does not mandate devotion to any private revelation.

But it is clear that there has always been a deep and quite understandable clerical involvement in the great sites and shrines, such as Lourdes and Fatima, and the faithful have flocked to these locations and claim to have received physical, mental, and spiritual healing. This is an example of the Church not declaring any apparition as binding, but at the same time, encouraging legitimate devotion in the laity.

While not a Catholic or a Christian myself, I do "believe in miracles" and am quite satisfied, for instance, that Fatima was the real deal, but not a manifestation from God or the Virgin, which interpretation was a later Jesuit re-shaping of an originally raw, undomesticated series of mystical experiences of both the three children involved and of the crowds who were in their company. So - disclaimer - I do believe that rare, paranormal events do occur, frequently with a religious interpretation attached to them after the fact.

So, finally, my questions:

1) Why does Catholicism claim the bulk of reported mystics, mystical experiences, "paranormal saints", preternatural cures, private and public Marian apparitions, occasional Jesus apparitions, etc.?

2) On the principle that Protestants are no less sincere and devout than their Catholic peers, why does Protestantism have so few claims of apparitions, etc.? Of course, for most Protestants, Mary is not the Catholic Mary, so no normative Protestant would be likely to believe in Marian apparitions, and if s/he experienced such an event, might tend to blame the Devil or hallucination. But there are sporadic records of Protestants having visions and private revelations from Jesus, usually, of course, phrased and framed within the proper confines of Protestant theology - unless the content is "heretical", in which the experiencer, in venerable Reformationist tradition, could, if so desired, found a new church or sect based on the experience.

3) What is the purpose - for Christian faith - of post-biblical revelations, prophecies, miraculous healings, apparitions of Jesus, Mary, the saints, etc.?

One answer might be that the living God continues to manifest Himself to His people. "God is the God of the living", not the dead. So as long as a Christian person's claimed revelation, or a mass-witnessed apparition, does not violate the commonality of biblically-rooted "deposit of Christian faith", then why not? Why not continued communication and immediate communion with the living, loving God, including miracles, cures, visions and apparitions?

Another - and opposing - answer might be that the Christian God placed everything we need to know about salvation into the Bible (Protestants), or that He placed everything we need to know for salvation into the Bible and into its interpretive/protective "Tradition" (Catholics).
Because of that, any and all claims of new prophecy, new miracles, new heavenly manifestations in the sky, in churches, in bleeding statues, bloody Hosts, images imprinted on trees and windows, apparitions in grottoes, etc., must be rejected as extra-biblical/extra-Tradition illusions, delusions, hallucinations, pathologies...and perhaps, even as "works of the Devil".

So I'm directing these issues to anyone who is intrigued by the miraculous in the post-biblical Christian tradition. Even if one disbelieves in such things, still, I would be interested in their thoughts on the function - if any - in the Christian faith of the miraculous, its value, its dangers, its significance, its necessity or its arbitrariness.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by steveb1]

We JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES believe that the end of the Apostolic ere (at the death of the last Apostle and their contemporaries) bought all spectacular miraculous events (including supernatural visions) of truly divine origin to an end. The bible alone would from that time contain all the messages that mankind wojld need. Subsequently all paranormal experiences and messages (whether from so-called relgious devotion, meditational or Yoga based exercises, "white witches" or near death experiences) are we believe, either explained by natural/medical phenonema, mental disorder or demonic intervention.


JW


RELATED POSTS

By what criteria should supernatural experiences be judged?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 38#p927538

Voices from God or voices from Demons?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 10#p927610
Continued
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 12#p927612

Why would a demon impersonate Jesus?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 72#p927472

How can near death experiences NDEs be explained?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 32#p928332

[polonius]

[quote="JehovahsWitness"]
[Replying to post 1 by steveb1]

We JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES believe that the end of the Apostolic ere (at the death of the last Apostle and their contemporaries) bought all spectacular miraculous events (including supernatural visions) of truly divine origin to an end. The bible alone would from that time contain all the messages that mankind wojld need. Subsequently all paranormal experiences and messages (whether from so-called relgious devotion, meditational or Yoga based exercises, "white witches" or near death experiences) are we believe, either explained by natural/medical phenonema, mental disorder or demonic intervention.


JW

RESPONSE: Since you go that far how about most of the stories in Bible just being nice stories, but not real events at all?

[William]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

How can near death experiences NDEs be explained?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 332#928332


I would encpurage the reader to follow this link and then see where the debate lead in relation to JWs claims here.

Eventually JW fled the thread, unable or unwilling to answer the observations I made regarding her assertions.

It is interesting that the JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES believe things they can't explain, and run away when the hard Q's are asked. ... only to pick up the cry in some other thread, hoping the ruse works.
I look forward to them JayDubs knocking at my door next, to see if they react in a similar way face to face.



As the OP states;

It's important to realize that the RCC does not mandate that Catholics accept any such extra-biblical encounter as authentic and binding. That decision is left to the individual Catholic. The Church only goes so far as to declare an apparition free from fraud and/or doctrinal error, but it does not mandate devotion to any private revelation.

There is no particular difference between the mother church and her distant offspring, the more 'modern' JWOrg.

"If it isn't in the bible, or contradicts doctrine, then "Demons".

The apple does not fall far from the tree.

Post#52 "The Generic Christian approach to the question of NDEs"

[steveb1]

[Replying to post 4 by William]

"Eventually JW fled the thread, unable or unwilling to answer the observations I made regarding her assertions.

It is interesting that the JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES believe things they can't explain, and run away when the hard Q's are asked"


Yes, that is exactly why I won't talk to "JW" any more. I showed how JW completely conflated the idea of immortality with the idea of eternity. I pressed her to admit it maybe five times and of course all I heard in response was crickets. Someone who advertises the virtues of his/her religion, but then goes and refuses to admit when they're wrong. Difficult to deal with, and certainly they do no favors for their faith communities.

[otseng]

Yes, that is exactly why I won't talk to "JW" any more. I showed how JW completely conflated the idea of immortality with the idea of eternity. I pressed her to admit it maybe five times and of course all I heard in response was crickets. Someone who advertises the virtues of his/her religion, but then goes and refuses to admit when they're wrong. Difficult to deal with, and certainly they do no favors for their faith communities.

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[JehovahsWitness]

RESPONSE: Since you go that far how about most of the stories in Bible just being nice stories, but not real events at all?

Well I don't hold to that belief but you are welcome to if that be your pleasure. As one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I believe the bible to be the word of God and entirely accurate when it comes to its report of events. I don't however want to derail the thread on this wider topic as it is rather dealing with mystical visions in the post biblical era.


JW

[marco]

We JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES believe that the end of the Apostolic ere (at the death of the last Apostle and their contemporaries) bought all spectacular miraculous events (including supernatural visions) of truly divine origin to an end.

This is a non-biblical conclusion. Presumably God works when God wants to; he is not (I imagine) subject to the rulings of a religious group that tells him he cannot part the Mediterranean today or declare something from the clouds, if he wishes. When we start retrricting God we are surely placing ourselves above God.

This odd idea would make Christ's advice : "Ask and it shall be given" fallacious, in that in post-apostolic times, miracles are mysterously verboten.

[JehovahsWitness]

We JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES believe that the end of the Apostolic ere (at the death of the last Apostle and their contemporaries) bought all spectacular miraculous events (including supernatural visions) of truly divine origin to an end.

This is a non-biblical conclusion.

Emphasis MINE

Again I have no intention of derailing the thread but should you feel inclined to open your own thread and support with the bible you claim that my point is "unbiblical", I believe sincerely you are within your right to do so.

Best Regards

JW

[marco]

We JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES believe that the end of the Apostolic ere (at the death of the last Apostle and their contemporaries) bought all spectacular miraculous events (including supernatural visions) of truly divine origin to an end.

This is a non-biblical conclusion.

Emphasis MINE

Again I have no intention of derailing the thread but should you feel inclined to open your own thread and support with the bible you claim that my point is "unbiblical", I believe sincerely you are within your right to do so.

We are firmly in the thread, JW, discussing the possibility of apparitions or miracles today. You are saying that the apparitions, miracles, wonders talked about in the OP cannot be genuine miracles since the miraculous ended with the apostles. Perhaps they are not genuine but where is the statement of cessation? I believe there is not a single reference to this cessation anywhere in the Bible. Of course it would be the easiest of tasks to supply one if it exists. I know that you have an excellent reference source to back up any claim you make, so I await the confirmation.