Jesus last words

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dio9
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Jesus last words

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Post by dio9 »

Did Jesus feel abandoned by God as is implied in Matthew and Mark . Or did he remain divinely united as in Luke and John?
I was meditating on this yesterday , thinking God experiences our life with us joy and pain. (wouldn't this be what all knowing all present means?)
Thoughts?

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Re: Jesus last words

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Post by JehovahsWitness »

dio9 wrote: Did Jesus feel abandoned by God as is implied in Matthew and Mark . Or did he remain divinely united as in Luke and John?
Since I believe all the accounts are four parts of a harmonious whole, I don't hold there is a dichotomy. While we don't know which expressions were his very last before dying, what we (that is those that take a wholistic approach to the bible narrative) do know is that he expressed feeling abandoned and yet also expressed his full confidence that his Father would do the right and just thing as he (Jesus) left all hope for future life in his Father's hands.
MATTHEW 27
About the ninth hour, Jesus called out with a loud voice, saying: Eli, Eli, lama sabach tha eni?" that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

(also see Mark 15:34)
LUKE 23:46

And Jesus called out with a loud voice and said: Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit. After he said this, he expired
.
JOHN 19:30

When he had received the sour wine, Jesus said: It has been accomplished! and bowing his head, he gave up his spirit
.

JW


To learn more please go to other posts related to
THE RANSOM SACRIFICE , THE EXECUTION OF CHRIST and ... MEMORIAL OF CHRIST'S DEATH
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jesus last words

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Post by marco »

dio9 wrote: Did Jesus feel abandoned by God as is implied in Matthew and Mark . Or did he remain divinely united as in Luke and John?
It appears that even in the final hour Jesus was acting out a role. He was simply repeating Psalm 22: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from my cries of anguish? "

He was fully cconvinced his return, after death, would be soon. Those who believe , accept he was right. I wonder why he needed to be so theatrical.

As a boy I thought his words were very moving, indicating the human side of a Saviour.

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Re: Jesus last words

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Post by JehovahsWitness »

marco wrote: I wonder why he needed to be so theatrical.
That makes me think of the Pharisees who mocked Jesus while he was dying. I often wonder at that, if a person has the least bit of humanity in them they will refrain from mocking the death of another human being, even if they esteem that person's life to be of no more value than a dog.

Not because of the person but because of the value of life. What purpose is served by mocking, even a serial killer of children as he writhes in the final agonizing moments of life? Even if his death is well deserved? Do we not lose some of our own humanity by not being respectful as another human being passes a path we too will pass one day? Jesus execution was not pretty... he had been beaten half to death and it is said that his heart literally ruptured, how much blood left his body through his mouth and nostrils we do not know, but what we do know is that if indeed he was executed as the gospels depict, he died painfully, very painfully. They say his mother was there.

And on the mockers continued to mock. They were not smugly silent at long long last having the final word and ridding themselves of the acursed carpenter from Nazareth, with his followers of unwashed labourers and washerwomen, no they danced around his bloodied body. No quiet dignity for them, these pillars of the community, these respected men of the law, these exemplary men of the Jewish High courts. This was their finest hour and they were going to enjoy it.

If you have a chance, listen to Handel's Messiah : "He trusted in God that he would deliver him" I'm sure you'll be able to identify.

Messiah: He trusted in God that he would deliver him (G. F. Händel)





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Why did Jesus feel abandonned at his death?
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To learn more please go to other posts related to
THE RANSOM SACRIFICE , THE EXECUTION OF CHRIST and ... MEMORIAL OF CHRIST'S DEATH
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jesus last words

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Post by marco »

JehovahsWitness wrote:

That makes me think of the Pharisees who mocked Jesus while he was dying.

I am sure your graphic portrayal of the suffering of Christ has a point. I watched Gibson's film on Christ but found some of the passion scene too graphic to tolerate. I wasn't mocking a dying man; I was correctly pointing out that the dying man, in the midst of his suffering, simply quoted from Scripture in what seems to be a theatrical way.

I have no explanation of why he did it. Nor indeed can I place a value on "It is consummated," other than he saw his partly semi-imposed ordeal coming to a close.
If he was fully convinced he'd rise from the dead, then his final words are irrelevant, apart from their oratorical value.

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Re: Jesus last words

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Post by dio9 »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

I wonder if the animosity of the pharisees mocking Jesus wasn't made up by Matthew's animosity toward the Pharisees? As you say it is too inhuman to dance on the terrible suffering of one crucified. You probably know Matthew was in argument with the synagogues which has recently excommunicated the Christian Jews.

The question is can Jesus feel both abandoned and graciously united at the same time?

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Re: Jesus last words

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dio9 wrote:Did Jesus feel abandoned by God as is implied in Matthew and Mark .
MATTHEW 27 About the ninth hour, Jesus called out with a loud voice, saying: “Eʹli, Eʹli, laʹma sa·bach·thaʹni?� that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?� does not imply that Jesus felt abandoned at al! The Psalms did not have reference numbers as we know them so to refer to a psalm one quoted the first line of the psalm, knowing everyone listening would repeat the whole psalm over in their minds for the message the speaker was referring to them.

And though this psalm starts with a depressed feeling of abandonment, it in fact ends in victory and that ending is what the people listening would take away, not the first line:
Ps 22:27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
HE HAS DONE IT!!!!
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Jesus last words

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Post by JehovahsWitness »

UNITY

2 a : a condition of harmony : accord
b : continuity without deviation or change (as in purpose or action)

While it's a given that Jesus and JEHOVAH are always united, indeed Jesus explicitly stated that "the Father and I are one" I don't see Jesus last words as being a direct reference to that oneness/unity.
LUKE 23:46

And Jesus called out with a loud voice and said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit. After he said this, he expired.
Although oneness of purpose with his Father is implicit in all he said and did , Jesus is here expressjng primarily his TRUST in his Father. Jesus knew and TRUSTED that his Father would keep his word, that he would not abandon (leave him forever) in the grave but would rather restore him (Jesus) to life in his due time

Can a person feel abandoned by someone yet at the same time still trust them?
It brings to mind a scene I saw on a bus not so long ago. A father was on the bus with his little girl, who was about three or four. As the bus approached their stop the father got up and moved towards the door. Being dad and not mum, he took it for granted that his daughter understood and would follow him but as she saw he dad move she cried out "PAPA!!!" He turned seeing she hadnt got up with him and instructed her to come and she was fine. The point is for an instant the child felt abandoned, although of course she wasnt. Did she still trust her father? Absolutely! When he turned and said "Well come on" she joined him immediately, unhestatedly; her passing moment of panic hadn't destroyed her confidence in her father.

She was to little to analyse what had happened but if she could she would have recognised that the temporarily physical separation was not abandonment (the father had no intention of leaving her on the bus) in short, she legitimately for her age, felt abandoned but she still trusted Her papa.
They say on the battlefield, dying men, despite their age, will still cry for their mothers. Jesus with his dying breath cried for his PAPA. It was a heartwrenching scene for sure, but understandable as death closed in on him. That he still trusted the one he cried for is evident by his last words "Into your hands I entrust my spirit"
CONCLUSION Jesus for a moment felt totally abandoned by his Father and voiced his anguish. He still trusted that one would not leave him forever, that the separation would be temporary and had full confidence his future prospect for life was in good hands
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Romans 14:8

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Re: Jesus last words

Post #9

Post by JehovahsWitness »

dio9 wrote:

I wonder if the animosity of the pharisees mocking Jesus wasn't made up by Matthew's animosity toward the Pharisees?
What about Jesus life death and resurrection, do you wonder if that was "made up by Matthew" as well?
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jesus last words

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Post by polonius »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
dio9 wrote: Did Jesus feel abandoned by God as is implied in Matthew and Mark . Or did he remain divinely united as in Luke and John?
Since I believe all the accounts are four parts of a harmonious whole, I don't hold there is a dichotomy. While we don't know which expressions were his very last before dying, what we (that is those that take a wholistic approach to the bible narrative) do know is that he expressed feeling abandoned and yet also expressed his full confidence that his Father would do the right and just thing as he (Jesus) left all hope for future life in his Father's hands.
MATTHEW 27
About the ninth hour, Jesus called out with a loud voice, saying: “Eʹli, Eʹli, laʹma sa·bach·thaʹni?� that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?�

(also see Mark 15:34)
LUKE 23:46

And Jesus called out with a loud voice and said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.� After he said this, he expired.
JOHN 19:30

When he had received the sour wine, Jesus said: “It has been accomplished!� and bowing his head, he gave up his spirit.

JW
QUESTION: Were any of these three at the crucifixion or not?

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