What's the meaning in John 3: 16?

[marco]

There are huge problems in the following:


“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.� John 3: 16


(a) In what way is LOVE shown by a father releasing a son to be tortured and killed?

(b) What is the meaning of "only begotten". It seems to be interpreted as "God's only son" with some emotion attached to the singularity. In what sense does God have a son, or beget one?

[WPG12]

[Replying to post 10 by Divine Insight]

God is supposed to be "love". You must be referencing the book of 1 John, where he also says God is light. Light metaphorically is understanding, isn't it?

God gives me "light", so I don't stumble around in darkness, but he isn't my understanding.

We are told though, that men would rather worship the created over the creator, and when God said let there be light, he created that light which men would hold to as if it were god.

God does hate certain men, he isn't just "love", in fact to say that gives us an image of god we can picture in our mind, breaking the commandment.

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Romans 9:13 KJV


David, who it is said was a man after God's own heart, hated men also.

I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
Psalms 139:22 KJV

[Divine Insight]

We are told though, that men would rather worship the created over the creator,

Is this true for you? Would you rather worship the created over the creator?

And if it's not true, then why would you believe it?

I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
Psalms 139:22 KJV

Ok, so you believe that God is perfect hatred.

Most Christians I know believe that God is perfect Love.

In fact, many of them claim that God's love is "unconditional". Of course, clearly that isn't true. But none the less, many Christians hold that God offers everyone "unconditional love". Obviously a God who offers unconditional love couldn't hate anyone.

Which faction of Christianity do you follow?

I know that there are some pretty hateful sects and demoninations of Christianity around, but it's pretty rare to see a Christian arguing that God is perfect hatred.

Also, how do you explain that Jesus renounced that mentality?

[WPG12]

[Replying to post 12 by Divine Insight]

Nice try, but you clearly are so caught up in your own ideas you can't listen to understand what someone else is saying.

Personally, I do not care what "other" Christian's believe.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 12 by Divine Insight]

Nice try, but you clearly are so caught up in your own ideas you can't listen to understand what someone else is saying.

Personally, I do not care what "other" Christian's believe.

Why didn't you answer my questions:

Is this true for you? Would you rather worship the created over the creator?

And if it's not true, then why would you believe it?

You claim that I'm not listening to you all the while you are flat-out ignoring me.

If you aren't willing to listen to me, why should I bother listening to you?

I asked the questions above because they are important.

I certainly have no desire to worship the created over the creator. So I'm asking why you believe this accusation to be true?

If the accusation isn't true for you, then why do you believe it?

[WPG12]

[Replying to post 14 by Divine Insight]

"Ok, so you believe that God is perfect hatred."

Well since you already know what I do or don't believe, maybe you should answer those questions for me.

Why should I answer questions from anyone who would rather try to twist words. You probably actually believe I said that don't you? And if you don't, what is the point in answering your questions.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 14 by Divine Insight]

"Ok, so you believe that God is perfect hatred."

Well since you already know what I do or don't believe, maybe you should answer those questions for me.

Why should I answer questions from anyone who would rather try to twist words. You probably actually believe I said that don't you? And if you don't, what is the point in answering your questions.

Well, you clearly believe in a hateful God. You certainly can't deny that after having posted Psalms 139:22 as proof that God hates people. So this much has already been well-established by your own arguments.

I can only assume that you must also desire to worship the created over the creator since you also posted this as something you feel everyone should believe.

Since you are the one who keeps harping on the claim that nobody is listening how about trying to demonstrate to everyone that you are capable of listening to others by answering the following simple questions:

1. If I am to believe in a supernatural all-perfect and righteous God then it's fair that I should also believe that she should be at least as loving and compassionate as myself. Right? That makes sense doesn't it?

2. If I am to believe in a supernatural all-perfect and righteous God then it's fair that I should also believe that she should be at least as intelligent as myself, and hopefully far more intelligent. Right? That makes sense doesn't it?

3. If I am to believe in a supernatural all-perfect and righteous God then it's fair that I should also believe that she should be at least be able to control her emotions as well as myself. Right? That makes sense doesn't it?

4. The jealous* hateful** God of the Bible doesn't meet any of the above criteria. Therefore it makes perfect sense for me to dismiss that description of a God as being obviously false. Right? That makes sense doesn't it?

* surely you'll agree that the Biblical God is a jealous God. Right? I shouldn't need to post the verses where this is claimed.

** you, yourself, have already made the argument that the God of the Bible is a hateful God. And you have already posted scripture to back that up.

So if you could take a moment to reply to the above 4 questions I'd very much appreciate it.

Thank you.

[WPG12]

[Replying to post 16 by Divine Insight]

Of course,

[brianbbs67]

There are huge problems in the following:


“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.� John 3: 16


(a) In what way is LOVE shown by a father releasing a son to be tortured and killed?

(b) What is the meaning of "only begotten". It seems to be interpreted as "God's only son" with some emotion attached to the singularity. In what sense does God have a son, or beget one?

A. Are you asking did God love His son less than the world?

B. To me, only begotten, means only son born of woman. That doesn't preclude other sons, non human or otherwise. Then , of course, Is the "ye are gods" I have always wondered if the apostrophe was left out. Christ described himself as the son of man, only. That seems to imply others not of man??

[Elijah John]

Isn't it odd, literally odd, that God would have one Son? Are we to ascribe human familial terms to the Almighty who is Spirit? If God has a Son, why not a "Daughter of God"? Why not multiple "begotten" children? Or siblings, Brothers of God, Sisters of God. Thinking of God as having relatives gives new and unintended meaning to the RC term "Mother of God".

The notion of God having children, much less an only child in the form of a Son seems odd and abritrary. Unless one is from a pagan culture, or unless one has been raised not to ever question the notion.

Is a pantheon of two or three (if we divide the Father from the Holy Spirit) any less a pantheon? How is Trintranianism not simply a more economical form of polytheism? Does mystically blending the two or three Persons and calling them a singular "Triune God" or a "Trinity" make the pantheon any less a pantheon? After all, Pagans too have an expression, "all gods are one God". And, or course there are several examples of pagan trinities.

And yes, indeed, how is it an act of love to give one's child to be slaughtered in order to save others from a penalty imposed by the very same Father who could merely forgive the debt in the first place, for those with contrite hearts?

Unless of course we are misreading "gave" and are interpreting John with a Pauline lens. Perhaps the giving has nothing to do with "giving up to be sacrificed". Perhaps the giving was the Father giving someone to enlighten us, teach us and lead the way.

[WPG12]

[Replying to post 19 by Elijah John]

Isn't it odd, literally odd, that God would have one Son? Are we to ascribe human familial terms to the Almighty who is Spirit?

Sure why not?

Doesn't a traditional family unit show the nature of thre Godhead, which paul talks about?

As a father
My protector
My provider
My lawgiver
Any role prescribed to a Father, traditionally

As a mother
My teacher
My nourisher
My comforter
Any role prescribed to a mother, traditionally

As a child, the son
Obedient, that is all that is ever asked of children.


But of course, we destroy those landmarks we can look back on and wonder at the meaning of, because we have no understanding.