The Circular Fallacy of Christianity.

[Divine Insight]

Supposedly Jesus is going to save us from eternal damnation.

The problem here is that Christianity is the religion that demands that some God is out to damn us in the first place. With out the damning God of Christianity there is nothing for Jesus to save us from.

Oh sure, if we were previously Muslims who already believed that there is a God who is out to damn us if we don't to as he says, they it might make sense for us to turn to Christianity and ask Jesus to save us from the damning God that we already believe exists.

However, even the original Jews didn't believe that some God was out to damn them. That whole idea was invented by the Romans when they created Christianity.

But in the meantime Christianity is a circular religion. You need to believe that some nasty God is out to damn you before the idea that his Son is required to save you from this damning "Father God".

And then ironically Christians have even elevated Jesus to being one and the same as the Father God. So Jesus is going to save you from his own wrath.

In order to be a Christian you must first believe that some God is out to damn you. Otherwise having Jesus as your savior makes no sense. And in Christianity the greatest irony of all is that the savior is supposed to be the same God who is out to damn you.

Without Christianity and offshoots from it like Islam there would be no reason to think that there exist some nasty God who is out to damn us.

So Christianity not only offers a "savior" in Christ, but they are also offering a "damning" God in Yahweh. Without a damning Yahweh, a saving Christ makes no sense.

Question for discussion or debate:

When did you accept Yahweh as your "Damner"?

Hopefully before you accepted Christ as your "Savior".

[PinSeeker]

Just becasue you quote from the Bible doesn't mean that you wish God was like the Bible describes.

LOL! Just because you think you know how the Bible describes God doesn't mean you're right. And you most assuredly are not.

By the way the quotes you list came from Paul, not Jesus or God.

In your opinion. I understand. Humanly speaking, that's right, but Spiritually speaking, not so much. The Bible is the Word of God. We've gone over that a thousand times before. I know where you stand, and you know where I stand. You know, um, "by the way."

I'm well aware of what Christians believe.And by the way, since you are so enthralled by the words of Paul let's examine them more closely.

Oh, please! Yes, let's do. Love Paul.

So Paul is confessing that there is no evidence to back up his own preaching.

No, actually, he's asserting that the incontrovertible evidence of what he's preaching is faith, which is the gift of God, Who stands behind everything he's saying. So it's actually a double proof. Given by God Himself.

So if you think you know something of this God, then you most certainly don't have the kind of faith that Paul was talking about.

Well that's the problem, isn't it? You don't have any idea of the kind of faith Paul was talking about. So you don't have any legs to stand on here.

Before you can be "saved" you must first believe that this God is out to damn you. Otherwise you wouldn't need to be saved from damnation in the first place.

Not true in the least. It is because we are saved from the damnation of our own choosing (brought from spiritual death to life in the Spirit) that we are then aware of our sin and compelled to repent of our sin and believe in Christ Jesus. And if this rebirth of the Spirit happens, then the rest does not fail to follow. This is what we call the "golden chain of salvation," which Paul describes beautifully in Romans 8:30, saying, "these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." Now, those of us still living have not been glorified as yet, but we will be, as certainly as if it is past tense, which is exactly how it is written.

Do you feel that you deserve to be damned?

Like I said before (several times), I don't "feel," but I know, and the answer is yes. So do you, and so do we all, but I don't doubt for one second that you don't.

If so what have you done that would deserve such a horrible fate?

Well, God says if you break any one little part of the Ten Commandments -- and indeed we all have, many, many, many times over, each and every day -- it's as if you have broken them all. As such, I don't deserve God's grace, and I don't deserve His salvation.

And if you haven't done anything to deserve such a horrible fate, then why place your faith in the idea that you deserve to be damned. Isn't that a bit masochistic?

LOL! "Masochistic..." LOL! I have, as demonstrated; we all have.

Why think so lowly of yourself?

I think no more highly of myself than anyone else. Unlike you, apparently.

You have to admit that to believe in Christianity a person must necessarily believe they are a seriously horrible person. Otherwise where would there be any justification for a supposedly loving decent God to be out to damn them? Could you address this specific question please?

Most gladly! But we'll have to rephrase a bit, you know, to get things right. Having been born again from above and becoming a Christian, one realizes just how seriously horrible he or she is before a holy God. And the extent to which one realizes this is directly proportional to how appreciative he or she is to God for saving him or her, how great His sacrifice was in enabling that to happen, and how high and wide and long and deep His love is -- how amazing His grace really is.

So Christianity is faith-based religion where you have placed your faith in the hope that some unseen God is out to damn you. Otherwise it makes no sense for you to wish so desperately to be saved from damnation.

You so obviously want to take control of the narrative here and make the argument what you want it to be. In your mind, that's fine, but just know that you can't do it. No offense intended, but you can't do it. The rest of your post is just stream-of-conscience drivel. Again, no offense intended, but it's like I said before: your premises are all horribly skewed, and that makes your stream of thought and your conclusions without merit whatsoever.

So your conviction of things unseen is to embrace the conviction that some unseen God is out to damn you. This is necessarily the basis of Christianity. Without a damning God there would be no desperation to be saved.

Well, without a holy God. But since He is holy, and perfect -- and the Creator, as opposed to the creature -- He is perfectly just in pronouncing damnation if He so chooses. But Scripture affirms over and over again that pronouncing judgment on anyone is not His desire.

Also, how do you square this with the fact that this same collection of fables has this same God formerly drowning out sinful humans? What changed that he's now going to offer them undeserved amnesty so they can be granted eternal life even though they haven't earned it?

Well, not "fables," or myths, but history. His Story. And what changed, well, nothing. It was always His plan, from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world. Which was and is driven by grace. God's grace. His amazing grace. According to His good pleasure.

In short, why believe Paul's claim: "For by grace (we) have been saved through faith; and that not of (our)selves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)?

Because it is not merely "Paul's claim," but God's revelation concerning His will through Paul. God said it. It's true.

Why believe that you are such a horrible person that you deserve to be damned, but this God has changed his mind about humans after thousands of years and is now willing to offer you eternal life without even requiring that you make amends for terrible deeds?

Well, first of all, God didn't "change his mind." Although some Christians will tell you this, actually. But they, and you, are wrong. God always offered eternal life, from Adam and Eve on. But they fell from grace, setting God's rescue plan into motion. It's always been about faith -- God-given faith -- and God's grace. Abel had faith, Cain didn't. Noah and his family had faith, nobody else did. Abraham had faith, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Moses had faith, the Egyptians did not. Read Hebrews 11. Which leads into Hebrews 12, of course, where we read that the only One who could "make amends" and reconcile us to God did just that, and is the author any perfecter of our faith, because, being both God and man, endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. All for us. Because of God's grace. Because God so loved the world.

what happens when you get to heaven? If you're such a horrible person that you deserve to be damned, then what changes when you go to heaven? Is that going to change who you are? If so, how does that work. Does this God then magically make you into an obedient robot who can no longer have any free will to do the horrible things you'd rather being doing?

LOL! Well, then we will finally be like God in that we will be sinless... unable to sin. We will truly be set free from our sinful nature. From sin and death. There will be no more sin. All sorrow and sighing will flee away, in the words of Isaiah 35.

You can hardly claim that you have changed your ways yourself. According to Paul that would then give you reason to boast. And we can't have that. So apparently you aren't even permitted to take any credited for having been "saved".

This I agree with. It's exactly what I said.

You can keep quoting from these ancient rumors and fables all you want. But quoting from a theological mythology that makes no sense doesn't do anything to make that theology meaningful.

LOL! You'll see. One way or the other -- according to your choosing -- you will see.

Why reject the truth?

LOL! I reject your "truth." I once embraced it. But, I was blind, but now I see.

Grace and peace to you, DI.

[Divine Insight]

Well that's the problem, isn't it? You don't have any idea of the kind of faith Paul was talking about. So you don't have any legs to stand on here.

Well, there's a major problem with the theology you are attempting to defend. You're argument right here is that it's not even a comprehensible theology. Otherwise there would be no reason for you to claim that anyone doesn't have any idea what your theology is talking about.

So by your own argument, the theology your support requires that everyone who doesn't buy into it must be ignorant.

That's a pretty sad apology for a theology that clearly makes no sense.

Divine Insight wrote:
Before you can be "saved" you must first believe that this God is out to damn you. Otherwise you wouldn't need to be saved from damnation in the first place.

Not true in the least. It is because we are saved from the damnation of our own choosing,....

Well, there you go. So now you need to defend the utterly insane idea that you actually chose to be damned.

I most certainly didn't choose to be damned. So clearly your theology wouldn't apply to me.

Also, this would then require that you actually changed your mind and decided not to be damned in order to be saved. But then being saved would have been your works and not a free give offered to you by someone else.

So there's no getting around it. If you claim responsibility for having done anything at all to obtain your salvation then you obtained it via your own "works".

And if you didn't do anything to warrant your salvation, and you had chosen to be damned, then there's no reason why you shouldn't be damned.

So again, your theology is utterly absurd and self-contradictory.

Do you feel that you deserve to be damned?

Like I said before (several times), I don't "feel," but I know, and the answer is yes. So do you, and so do we all, but I don't doubt for one second that you don't.

Again, a pretty sick religion that relies entirely on the utterly absurd claim that all humans deserve to be damned.

How can you support such a derogatory theology. Especially when you openly confess to believe it on mere hope of things unseen?

You're hoping that all humans deserve to be damned? That's not a very healthy hope IMHO.

Well, God says if you break any one little part of the Ten Commandments -- and indeed we all have, many, many, many times over, each and every day -- it's as if you have broken them all. As such, I don't deserve God's grace, and I don't deserve His salvation.

What God said this?

Oh, wait, I'll bet your referring to Hebrew mythology!

Why in the world would you think that such an ignorant barbaric theology would be the word of any God?

Again, this all comes back to "faith" on your part. Hope in the unseen. Even when there is overwhelming evidence against these Hebrew fables.

And if you haven't done anything to deserve such a horrible fate, then why place your faith in the idea that you deserve to be damned. Isn't that a bit masochistic?

LOL! "Masochistic..." LOL! I have, as demonstrated; we all have.

You haven't demonstrated anything. All you've done is demonstrate that you are willing to place you hope in the unseen evidence of ancient Hebrew Folklore.

And not only this, but you are the one who apparently hopes that this derogatory and ignorant folklore could be true. That's Masochistic thinking.

Why would you hope that you deserve to be damned?

It's still not clear why you would hope that such a derogatory claim might be true?

Why think so lowly of yourself?

I think no more highly of myself than anyone else. Unlike you, apparently.

Well, according to the New Testament Gossips I'm at least as nice as Jesus. Do you think Jesus deserved to be damned?

You have to admit that to believe in Christianity a person must necessarily believe they are a seriously horrible person. Otherwise where would there be any justification for a supposedly loving decent God to be out to damn them? Could you address this specific question please?

Most gladly! But we'll have to rephrase a bit, you know, to get things right. Having been born again from above and becoming a Christian, one realizes just how seriously horrible he or she is before a holy God. And the extent to which one realizes this is directly proportional to how appreciative he or she is to God for saving him or her, how great His sacrifice was in enabling that to happen, and how high and wide and long and deep His love is -- how amazing His grace really is.

The problem is that the so-called "sacrifice" in this religion doesn't even make any sense in any case. Did Jesus die? Nope, to the contrary in this religion Jesus is currently alive and well sitting on a throne in heaven passing judgement on humans.

In fact, what supposedly happened to Jesus is precisely what every Christian dreams of having happen to them. They die, maybe for as short a time as three days, and then are resurrected and accepted into heaven.

Jesus obtained the reward of saints as well as everlasting life. How is that a "sacrifice"?

I can't imagine any human who wouldn't gladly trade places with Jesus. So it can't have been much of a sacrifice.

In fact, humans often make much greater sacrifices. Such as police, fire fighters, doctors, soldiers, etc. And none of them have any promise of being raised from the dead and being given eternal life for their sacrifice.

Jesus, knowing that he wouldn't really die, made no sacrifice at all. None whatsoever.

You so obviously want to take control of the narrative here and make the argument what you want it to be. In your mind, that's fine, but just know that you can't do it. No offense intended, but you can't do it. The rest of your post is just stream-of-conscience drivel. Again, no offense intended, but it's like I said before: your premises are all horribly skewed, and that makes your stream of thought and your conclusions without merit whatsoever.

I accept this as a sign that even you recognize that your apologies aren't holding water.

So your conviction of things unseen is to embrace the conviction that some unseen God is out to damn you. This is necessarily the basis of Christianity. Without a damning God there would be no desperation to be saved

.

Well, without a holy God. But since He is holy, and perfect -- and the Creator, as opposed to the creature -- He is perfectly just in pronouncing damnation if He so chooses. But Scripture affirms over and over again that pronouncing judgment on anyone is not His desire.

So let me clarify what you've just said here.

1. Your God is so perfect that he can get away with doing anything he wants.
2. However he can't even create so much as a single solitary decent human being.
3. He doesn't like to pronounce judgement on anyone but is powerless to change this.
4. I take it he's also supposed to be omnipotent and omniscient as well.

I'm afraid that #2 and #3 aren't compatible with #4.

So unless your God is impotent and inept #2 and #3 don't hold water.

Also, how do you square this with the fact that this same collection of fables has this same God formerly drowning out sinful humans? What changed that he's now going to offer them undeserved amnesty so they can be granted eternal life even though they haven't earned it?

Well, not "fables," or myths, but history. His Story. And what changed, well, nothing. It was always His plan, from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world. Which was and is driven by grace. God's grace. His amazing grace. According to His good pleasure.

What you say makes no sense. The Bible has God repenting that he had ever created humans. So having to drown them out could not have been his plan.

Also, if you want to stick to the whole "God Planned Everything" apology, then God would have needed to have planed Satan. He also would have needed to design and plan to have Adam and Eve fall from grace. In other words they could hardly be blamed for something God had planned from the very beginning.

So this idea that God plans everything doesn't fly.

And a God who is surprised by the way things turn out cannot be omnipotent or omniscient.

So you need to go back to the drawing board with this theology. It clearly isn't compatible with its own claims.

In short, why believe Paul's claim: "For by grace (we) have been saved through faith; and that not of (our)selves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)?

Because it is not merely "Paul's claim," but God's revelation concerning His will through Paul. God said it. It's true.

Then why didn't Jesus or the Old Testament prophesize the coming of Paul. Clearly Paul's ministry is far more important to your arguments for this theology than the teachings attributed to Jesus.

Also, why did Jesus fail to teach these things? Was he impotent and inept as well?

Well, first of all, God didn't "change his mind." Although some Christians will tell you this, actually. But they, and you, are wrong

I see, EVERYONE has it all wrong but YOU. So you're not saying that it's just little old me who doesn't understand, but you're prepared to discredit the vast majority of Christendom as well.

This seems to be a hallmark of this religion. So many people seem to think that they have it all understood whilst everyone else has it all wrong. Ironically there are many of these people and they don't even agree with each other.

They renounce each other has "having it all wrong".

By the way, if the Bible is "God's Word", then why do so many people have it all wrong? Your perfect God must be one whale of an inept communicator and teacher.

God always offered eternal life, from Adam and Eve on. But they fell from grace, setting God's rescue plan into motion.

But this contradicts your previous apology that God had everything planned from the beginning. Adam and Eve could not have "set" God's rescue plan into motion if God had this all planned out from the beginning. To the contrary, God's original plan is what would have needed to "set" Adam and Eve's behavior into motion against their own Free Will Choice.

See, you are already shooting your own apologies in their own feet.

It's always been about faith -- God-given faith -- and God's grace. Abel had faith, Cain didn't.

Yet another contradiction in your apologies:

"God-given faith"?

If God is the one who gives people faith then why would God give Abel Faith, and not Cain? That wouldn't be fair, righteous or nice.

So you can't claim that faith is "God-given" in this case. You absolutely need Abel to have made his own Free Will Choice to place his faith in God and for Cain to choose by his Free Will Choice not to place his faith in God.

But then we have Abel earning his reward due to his own free will choice to place his faith in God. And thus there is no need for "grace" because Abel would have earned his own reward.

So once again, you're theological apologies are self-contradictory.

Noah and his family had faith, nobody else did. Abraham had faith, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Moses had faith, the Egyptians did not. Read Hebrews 11. Which leads into Hebrews 12, of course, where we read that the only One who could "make amends" and reconcile us to God did just that, and is the author any perfecter of our faith, because, being both God and man, endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. All for us. Because of God's grace. Because God so loved the world.

You're still residing within a contradiction.

Did any of these people have faith due to their own personal free will choice?

Is so, then their faith was not "God-given" but rather it was their own choice and they would have earned their salvation due to their own "works" (i.e. their own choice to have faith in this God)

So you need to decide who's responsible for faith. God or man?

You can't be calling it "God-given faith" if it's man's free will choice to have faith or not.

And if it's not "God-given" then all these people are earning their own salvation and it's not being bestowed upon them as free grace.

what happens when you get to heaven? If you're such a horrible person that you deserve to be damned, then what changes when you go to heaven? Is that going to change who you are? If so, how does that work. Does this God then magically make you into an obedient robot who can no longer have any free will to do the horrible things you'd rather being doing?

LOL! Well, then we will finally be like God in that we will be sinless... unable to sin. We will truly be set free from our sinful nature. From sin and death. There will be no more sin. All sorrow and sighing will flee away, in the words of Isaiah 35.

Well, there you go!

The greatest contradiction of all in your entire theology.

If it is possible for God to magically set humans free from their sinful nature then he could have done that on day one of his creation.

So this whole theology is now tumbling to the ground like a huge house of cards.

You can hardly claim that you have changed your ways yourself. According to Paul that would then give you reason to boast. And we can't have that. So apparently you aren't even permitted to take any credited for having been "saved".

This I agree with. It's exactly what I said.

In that case it's impossible for you to be save and for ANYONE ELSE not to be saved.

Because if you did nothing on your own to deserve being saved, then this is true of everyone else as well. Therefore according to your theological apology here, it's impossible for anyone to be damned. Since everyone is saved for having done nothing at all of their own merit.

So you've got a theology that doesn't hold water.

You can keep quoting from these ancient rumors and fables all you want. But quoting from a theological mythology that makes no sense doesn't do anything to make that theology meaningful.

LOL! You'll see. One way or the other -- according to your choosing -- you will see.

But you just got done demanding that my choosing can't have anything at all to do with it. Especially not with being "saved".

If my choices can save me, then I am saved by my own "works" (i.e. my own choices)

But you have used the writings of Paul to renounce this.

Why reject the truth?

LOL! I reject your "truth." I once embraced it. But, I was blind, but now I see.

Now your starting to sound like Rudy Giuliani.

I pay attention to the actual truth of reality.

What you have been attempting to defend is nothing more than the hearsay writings of ancient superstitions.

Even you have openly confessed that you embrace this via "hope" of things "unseen".

So you already know that what you are talking about cannot be said to be any sort of verifiable truth.

What I have offered is actually verified truth.

We know that death, diseases and animals eating animals have always existed long before humans showed up on the planet.

If you want to ignore that truth be my guest.

I would think that a "Christian" who values truth and honesty would at least own up to the truth when it's undeniable. But I guess I'm wrong about that, huh?

[PinSeeker]

You're argument right here is that it's not even a comprehensible theology.

No actually I'm stating that your assertions about Christianity are, for the most part, 180 degrees opposite to what the Biblical arguments are. Plus they are all over the place. So the only conclusion that any thinking person can make is that you have no idea what Biblical Christianity is. Either that, or you're being very intentional about distorting it into something that you can easily knock down.

So now you need to defend the utterly insane idea that you actually chose to be damned.

Case in point. I never said any such thing. Nobody "chooses to be damned." So, no, I don't "need to defend" that. I don't "need to do" anything. If you want me to defend what I've actually said, which is that each of us has chosen to sin rather than choosing God and righteousness, and as a result have become deserving of damnation, then I can do that many times over in many ways. Like this: "All we like sheep have gone astray, each to his own way." (Isaiah 53:6a)

If you claim responsibility for having done anything at all to obtain your salvation then you obtained it via your own "works".

This is exactly right; I agree 100%. Faith is not a work. Yes, blind squirrels do find nuts every once in a while.

And if you didn't do anything to warrant your salvation, and you had chosen to be damned, then there's no reason why you shouldn't be damned.

But then you go and make nonsensical statements like this. I mean, I don't even know what this means.

...a pretty sick religion that relies entirely on the utterly absurd claim that all humans deserve to be damned.

Well, you just don't like the fact -- hate it, actually -- that you deserve damnation. I understand. I don't either... I feel the same way. But we have nobody to blame but ourselves.

You're hoping that all humans deserve to be damned? That's not a very healthy hope IMHO.

LOL!I don't even want to ask how in the world you got here...

Again, this all comes back to "faith" on your part.

Sure.

Hope in the unseen.

No, the God-given assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. See? You mangle even the simplest of things. It's no wonder you don't think Christianity makes any sense.

Even when there is overwhelming evidence against these Hebrew fables.

LOL!

Did Jesus die? Nope, to the contrary in this religion Jesus is currently alive and well sitting on a throne in heaven passing judgement on humans.

Actually, yes, He did experience the physical death that all men do. He laid down His life for His friends. The ultimate sacrifice. This is how we know He was a man. But after three days, He took his life back up again, which is how we also know that He was God, who has authority over life and death. And actually, He sits at the right hand of God the Father, constantly interceding on our behalf. The Judgment will come later.

In fact, humans often make much greater sacrifices. Such as police, fire fighters, doctors, soldiers, etc. And none of them have any promise of being raised from the dead and being given eternal life for their sacrifice.

Ohhhh, they do if they're Christians...

Jesus, knowing that he wouldn't really die, made no sacrifice at all. None whatsoever.

In your opinion. I getcha.

...even you recognize that your apologies aren't holding water.

I recognize the fact that you're unwilling to accept that my apologies do hold water, sure. But I would have said this long ago. But someday you might; with God, all things are possible.

Okay, I'm done here. I'll leave you to your own folly. Nice talking to you, DI. Or maybe not so much...

[Divine Insight]

Well, you just don't like the fact -- hate it, actually -- that you deserve damnation. I understand. I don't either... I feel the same way. But we have nobody to blame but ourselves.

But once again, you contradict your own thesis. You have claimed that your faith is "hope" for things "unseen".

Therefore you are necessarily hoping that you deserve to be damned. But now you are claiming that you wouldn't like for this to be true. Well, if you wouldn't like for it to be true then why would you place your faith in the idea that it might be true?

See? You're contradicting your own apologetic arguments.

You've just confessed that even you don't like your own religion.

You're hoping that all humans deserve to be damned? That's not a very healthy hope IMHO.

LOL!I don't even want to ask how in the world you got here...

If you don't understand how this follows from your own arguments then clearly all you're doing is trying to make arguments point-by-point without even realizing that your overall position isn't making any sense.

Have you forgotten that you are believing in all of this as a matter of faith (i.e. hope for things unseen). This includes hoping that humans deserved to be damned. Because without this important element the religion has nothing to stand on.

Again, this all comes back to "faith" on your part.

Sure.

Exactly my point. Your placing your faith in the hope that all humans, including yourself, deserve damnation. Something that even you claim that you don't like.

Okay, I'm done here. I'll leave you to your own folly. Nice talking to you, DI. Or maybe not so much...

I see you conveniently ignored the most devastating argument against your theology:,...

what happens when you get to heaven? If you're such a horrible person that you deserve to be damned, then what changes when you go to heaven? Is that going to change who you are? If so, how does that work. Does this God then magically make you into an obedient robot who can no longer have any free will to do the horrible things you'd rather being doing?

LOL! Well, then we will finally be like God in that we will be sinless... unable to sin. We will truly be set free from our sinful nature. From sin and death. There will be no more sin. All sorrow and sighing will flee away, in the words of Isaiah 35.

Well, there you go!

The greatest contradiction of all in your entire theology.

If it is possible for God to magically set humans free from their sinful nature then he could have done that on day one of his creation.

So this whole theology is now tumbling to the ground like a huge house of cards.

See.

You have a God who can supposedly magically set humans free from their sinful nature anytime he so desires.

Yet he chose not to do this when he first created humans.

I can certainly understand why you were quick to pretend not to see that one.

The theology makes no sense. Why not own up to this truth?

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If your God can free humans from their sinful nature in heaven, then he could most certainly have done that at the beginning of creation as well.

So the theology falls flat on its face. It's clearly a superstitious myth that doesn't even make any sense at all.

[jgh7]

Disobey a parent and they'll punish you. Follow their rules and guidance and they'll reward you. Your parent is both the punisher and the savior depending on whether you follow them or not.

If this is common sense understanding, then why is it the most incredibly ironic thing to you for Christianity's God?

[Divine Insight]

Disobey a parent and they'll punish you. Follow their rules and guidance and they'll reward you. Your parent is both the punisher and the savior depending on whether you follow them or not.

If this is common sense understanding, then why is it the most incredibly ironic thing to you for Christianity's God?

Human parents punish their children because they don't know how to be good parents. An omnipotent omniscient God should know better, and should be able to do far better as well.

So you can hardly point to the ignorance and ineptitude of human parents as an example of how a supposedly all-wise omnipotent omniscient God should behave.

These kinds of excuses for the poor behavior of a God simply aren't impressive.

~~~~~

Also, everyone seems to want to ignore the more serious problem with Christianity.

When Christians die and are taken up into heaven God will need to "free" them from their sinful nature. And he will need to be able to do this without turning them into obedient robots who have no free will.

Do you see the problem?

If not, I'll explain further.

If it's possible for this God to "free" humans from their sinful nature in order to allow them into his perfect heaven, then it must also be possible for God to have "freed" humans from their sinful nature on the very day that he created them.

In short, if any human at any point in time has a "sinful nature" it can only be the fault of their creator God.

So much for Christianity. It's a religion that obviously cannot be true. Humans could not be held responsible for their "sinful nature" if they were created with a "sinful nature". That would hardly be their fault.

[rikuoamero]

Disobey a parent and they'll punish you. Follow their rules and guidance and they'll reward you. Your parent is both the punisher and the savior depending on whether you follow them or not.

If this is common sense understanding, then why is it the most incredibly ironic thing to you for Christianity's God?

Because my parent doesn't say I'm condemned for merely being what I am, for having human nature; and also doesn't take upon his own declared punishment and then grant himself a reprieve, all the while declaring that if I don't believe that he took upon the punishment, then I will receive the punishment anyway.

"Rikuo, I am your father. You don't remember it, but you once did something very bad. Well actually, your ancestor did it. The punishment I declared was eternal seperation from me. To show you how loving I am towards you, I declared that you deserve this punishment. In order to again show my love, I took upon this punishment...except that after three days, I stopped it. If you don't believe I did this, and don't believe that it makes perfect sense, I'll put you in the super-ultra-mega time out corner, where you'll be separated from me for all eternity."

[PinSeeker]

But once again, you contradict your own thesis. You have claimed that your faith is "hope" for things "unseen".

And once again, you have mischaracterized -- despite repeated correction according to God's Word -- that Biblical faith is a "hope" (or a "wish"), as opposed to an assurance, given by God Himself.

You're contradicting your own apologetic arguments.

And this is my point: All the things that you think are my apologetic arguments are not really my apologetic arguments at all. You just keep turning my arguments into things they are not so you can easily refute them. You have no ground to stand on. Trying that much harder and doubling and tripling and quadrupling down just makes matters worse for you.

You've just confessed that even you don't like your own religion.

LOL! No, I've "confessed" that I don't like some of the truths it uncovers about natural man.

Have you forgotten that you are believing in all of this as a matter of faith (i.e. hope for things unseen). This includes hoping that humans deserved to be damned.

Still banging your head against that brick wall. I'd quit it if I were you, but hey, you're your own man. Who am I to tell you what to do or not to do?

Your placing your faith in the hope that all humans, including yourself, deserve damnation.

LOL! No, my faith is in God the Father, who tells me that I and all humans are deserving of damnation because we all fall short of His glory. And my faith is in God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit, too, but that's sort of beside the immediate point.

Something that even you claim that you don't like.

Right, I don't like that I deserve damnation. Sure. But since I do, that makes me all the more glad that God has changed my nature (though my old nature is still regrettably with me; this is why I, like all the rest of humanity, still sin) so that I know sin is wrong and therefore repent of it and believe on Jesus, who is my Redeemer and Friend. And it also makes me want that for others, including... you.

I see you conveniently ignored the most devastating argument against your theology...

Right, because it's so wooden-headed that it's not even worth addressing. The things you're propagating devastate themselves.

If it is possible for God to magically set humans free from their sinful nature then he could have done that on day one of his creation.

LOL! I've said this many times, but I'll do so again, just because you're, you know, such a nice fella <chuckles>. Actually, humans didn't need to be set free from their sinful nature on day one of God's creation, because they were created without it. Man's decision to sin caused his sinless nature to die, just as God warned him it would.

So the theology falls flat on its face. It's clearly a superstitious myth that doesn't even make any sense at all.

"Clearly." LOL!!!

[Divine Insight]

LOL! I've said this many times, but I'll do so again, just because you're, you know, such a nice fella <chuckles>. Actually, humans didn't need to be set free from their sinful nature on day one of God's creation, because they were created without it. Man's decision to sin caused his sinless nature to die, just as God warned him it would.

But this doesn't resolve the problem with this theology.

You, yourself, have recognized that when you die and go to heaven God will need to free you from your sinful nature, and do this without turning you into a mindless obedient zombie. The importance of free will in Christianity cannot be overstated.

So this theology requires that this God can magically free humans of their sinful nature without turning them into zombies or violating their free will. Yet the idea that God cannot do this without violating human free will is what this entire theology stands upon.

So the theology cannot stand as a logically sound paradigm. It's clearly nothing more than a flawed cultural superstition that is ultimately self-contradictory.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to post 1 by Divine Insight]

So you would prefer anarchy?

How do you know that killing is wrong?

Why can man punish evil doers here on earth?

Are you saying that criminals should not go to jail?

Justice is why those who do not profess the name of Christ try to criticize God when He instructed Israel to destroy whole tribes of people. They feel like God was not just to the people Is that how you feel?

Men desire justice. They simply do not like it when justice is applied to them.