What happens to sinners versus saints?

[showme]

It appears that the "many" have a problem with what happens to sinners and saints.

I will try and make it obvious what happens:

Sinners and Saints both suffer and die. The saints remain in the grave until they "came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years" (Revelation 20:4). The sinners remain in the grave until the white throne judgment (Revelation 20:13). The righteous remain at rest in their grave until they "rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age" (Daniel 12:13)

[marco]

It appears that the "many" have a problem with what happens to sinners and saints.

I will try and make it obvious what happens:

Sinners and Saints both suffer and die. The saints remain in the grave until they "came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years" (Revelation 20:4). The sinners remain in the grave until the white throne judgment (Revelation 20:13). The righteous remain at rest in their grave until they "rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age" (Daniel 12:13)

That is startling information. Can you indicate where one would find proof that this is true and not just guesswork?

You have said what you think happens; you have not made it obvious that this does in fact. As for saints and sinners: Jesus said we should call nobody good. Where then are the non-sinners?

[marco]

It appears that the "many" have a problem with what happens to sinners and saints.

I will try and make it obvious what happens:

Sinners and Saints both suffer and die. The saints remain in the grave until they "came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years" (Revelation 20:4). The sinners remain in the grave until the white throne judgment (Revelation 20:13). The righteous remain at rest in their grave until they "rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age" (Daniel 12:13)

That is startling information. Can you indicate where one would find proof that this is true and not just guesswork?

You have said what you think happens; you have not made it obvious that this does in fact. As for saints and sinners: Jesus said we should call nobody good. Where then are the non-sinners?

[showme]

It appears that the "many" have a problem with what happens to sinners and saints.

I will try and make it obvious what happens:

Sinners and Saints both suffer and die. The saints remain in the grave until they "came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years" (Revelation 20:4). The sinners remain in the grave until the white throne judgment (Revelation 20:13). The righteous remain at rest in their grave until they "rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age" (Daniel 12:13)

That is startling information. Can you indicate where one would find proof that this is true and not just guesswork?

You have said what you think happens; you have not made it obvious that this does in fact. As for saints and sinners: Jesus said we should call nobody good. Where then are the non-sinners?

Not that you actually care, but a good start would be to look at 1 John 3:4-9. As for the rest, I gave the pertinent references.

[marco]

Not that you actually care, but a good start would be to look at 1 John 3:4-9. As for the rest, I gave the pertinent references.

I looked and I am no wiser.


One of the beauties of Scripture is that there are as many interpretations as there are readers. I find it miraculous that many people who have trouble understanding classical prose read Scripture and deduce the right meaning. Perhaps it is a gift of the Holy Spirit.


When saints oppose sinners, I suppose the sinners possess all the best weapons.

[showme]

Not that you actually care, but a good start would be to look at 1 John 3:4-9. As for the rest, I gave the pertinent references.

I looked and I am no wiser.


One of the beauties of Scripture is that there are as many interpretations as there are readers. I find it miraculous that many people who have trouble understanding classical prose read Scripture and deduce the right meaning. Perhaps it is a gift of the Holy Spirit.


When saints oppose sinners, I suppose the sinners possess all the best weapons.

Well, the sinners may have the tools of deceit, fraud, murder, false witnessing, and theft, but do they actually enjoy their lives, or do they die wretched, and often at their own hands. And in the end, who actually wins?

[marco]

Well, the sinners may have the tools of deceit, fraud, murder, false witnessing, and theft, but do they actually enjoy their lives, or do they die wretched, and often at their own hands. And in the end, who actually wins?

There is no contest. Earth is made for sinners, not saints. Some saints have had molten metal poured down their throats before they died; others were mercifully strangled as flames engulfed them; suffering seems to be the badge of the saint. There is no evidence that the sinner, with luxurious funeral and poetic lamentations and eulogies, has experienced regret. Some may of course, as might some sinners.


The carrot is what happens post mortem. We can ruminate like Hamlet on what will be, but we cannot know. Different creeds offer different goods: oranges, peaches, springs, pastures, choirs , food of angels.... Perhaps it is wise to follow the advice of Horace: Carpe diem, words wonderfully echoed by Robin Williams in Dead Poets Society. Or the advice of Robert Herrick : "Gather ye rosebuds while ye may...."


Saints suffer. Hope would have it they are rewarded for their pains but there is no earthly reason to suppose they enjoy anything more than eternal rest.

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 1 by showme]

Given that saints are sinners, your question doesn't make a great deal of sense. The only difference I can see, if one takes Christian theology seriously, is that the sinners who are saints get away with their sins.

God plays favorites is all we learn from this and he does so based simply on his whims.

[showme]

[Replying to post 1 by showme]

Given that saints are sinners, your question doesn't make a great deal of sense. The only difference I can see, if one takes Christian theology seriously, is that the sinners who are saints get away with their sins.

God plays favorites is all we learn from this and he does so based simply on his whims.

Your premise is based on that the false prophet Paul's false gospel of grace is not false. Unfortunately for Paul's followers, it is false, and Paul's "many" followers are on the path to "destruction" (Matthew 7:13). The conclusion is that Paul, nor his followers will be changed from corruptible to incorruptible in a twinkling of an eye, and they will all die (Jeremiah 31:30). Paul's gospel of grace is the same lie the serpent told eve, which was she surely shall not die (Genesis 3:3). Looking at death certificate records, it appears Eve did die, and Paul as well.

[PinSeeker]

Given that saints are sinners, your question doesn't make a great deal of sense.

This was my first thought, too, TCG. Kudos to you. Yes, there is no difference, except that saints are redeemed sinners, meaning somone -- Someone -- has borne the consequences (wages) of sin in their stead.

The only difference I can see, if one takes Christian theology seriously, is that the sinners who are saints get away with their sins.

Well, in the sense that someone bears the punishment for them, yes. But there are still consequences. We will all be judged according to our deeds/works (Isaiah 59, Jeremiah 32, Hosea 12, Matthew 16, Romans 2, 2nd Corinthians 5, 2nd Corinthians 11, 2nd Timothy 4). Yes, God is quite emphatic about that...

God plays favorites is all we learn from this...

Well, no, because God does not desire that any should perish; God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (2nd Timothy 2:4). And we read that "God so loved the world... (John 3:16) rather than that He only loved certain parts of the world, right? Right.

However, then we can talk about God's Elect, or those that He chose, before the foundation of the world, before any had done anything bad or good, to be saved. So then we ask, "Why did He choose some and not others?" Well, we don't know. God is God:

• "His thoughts are higher than our thoughts, His ways higher than ours" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

At some point we just have to admit that there are things that we just cannot know in this life;

• "Such knowledge is too wonderful for (us); it is too high, (we) cannot attain to it" (Psalm 139:6).

And:

• "Who has known the mind of God? How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!" (Romans 11)

...he does so based simply on his whims.

God does not have "whims." But He does things according to His own good pleasure, for sure. For His own glory. As Creator, and Lord of the Universe, He is perfectly just in that.