Dead Sea Scrolls

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Willum
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Dead Sea Scrolls

Post #1

Post by Willum »

The Dead Sea Scrolls are often the apex of apologetic arguments. They represent the first surviving collection of fragments of the Old Testament.

They have been argued to be from 200 BCE, 60 BCE and now we get from between 150 BCE and 70 CE.

So, for discussion, if these have a possible age of after Jesus, what reasonable person wouldn't assume that were true?

This article is essentially what is up for discussion:
https://www.history.com/news/6-things-y ... ea-scrolls

Should we believe in any prophecy that has the potential to be written after the fact, or dismiss it out of hand?

What is to be made of the other documents that are there?

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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls

Post #2

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 1 by Willum]

I'm finding it hard to follow what you are suggesting here ....
  • Are you suggesting that the Hebrew bible (oT) was written after Jesus lived because its possible we dont have any older copies?

    or that they were written before and therefore he couldn't have fulfilled prophecy because he could have read them?
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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls

Post #3

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

Folks usually find it difficult to understand when faced with a reality they are unable to rectify with their own beliefs.

It is simple, the DSS have a possible date of after the time of Jesus, despite claims.

This leaves us with two hypothesis.
1. The Old Testament particularly concerning prophesies, were written after Jesus.
2. That the prophesies were written before.

There remains the possibility there were works tampered with, and those not.

But what is more reasonable?
That they were written after Christ, and ensured the events of were made prophecy, or were actual prophesy?

And what is to be made of all the foreign materials apparently being translated?

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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls

Post #4

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Willum wrote:
[T]he DSS have a possible date of after the time of Jesus, despite claims.

This leaves us with two hypothesis.
1. The Old Testament particularly concerning prophesies, were written after Jesus.
Emphasis MINE


Well this is a first, I have never come across someone that suggests the "Old Testament" dates from the first century,... so you are suggesting that the Jewish temple system, tradition and worship predated their scripture? So you reckon the Septuagint (the translation) was made before the originals were written? Isn't that like being born after your tenth birthday?
The Septuagint (or simply "LXX") is the name commonly given in the West to the ancient, Koine Greek version of the Hebrew Bible (often called the "Old Testament") translated in stages between the third to first century B.C.E. in Alexandria. It is the oldest of several ancient translations of the Hebrew Bible into Greek. The name means "seventy" and derives from a tradition that seventy-two Jewish scholars (LXX being the nearest round number) translated the Torah from Hebrew into Greek for one of the Ptolemaic kings.

Source: http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Septuagint
So you think when Josephus, writing in the second half of the first century, referred to the Jewish Holy books, including those of Moses... they had just been or had yet to be written?
"For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another [as the Greeks have], but only twenty-two books, which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine" - Josephus Against Apion, 1.38
Have you come across any serious scholars or published works of any description that suggests such a late date for the books of the Hebrew scriptures?

JW
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls

Post #5

Post by showme »

Willum wrote: The Dead Sea Scrolls are often the apex of apologetic arguments. They represent the first surviving collection of fragments of the Old Testament.

They have been argued to be from 200 BCE, 60 BCE and now we get from between 150 BCE and 70 CE.

So, for discussion, if these have a possible age of after Jesus, what reasonable person wouldn't assume that were true?

This article is essentially what is up for discussion:
https://www.history.com/news/6-things-y ... ea-scrolls

Should we believe in any prophecy that has the potential to be written after the fact, or dismiss it out of hand?

What is to be made of the other documents that are there?
We should probably dismiss the idea that the Dead Sea Scrolls were written in 70 A.D. They weren't discovered until 1947 and not deciphered till the 1990s, yet the OT, which contains parallel writings, have been around for millennia.

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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls

Post #6

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

Sure, show me that all that stuff existed as long as the Bible said it did.
You cannot. It is just a myth, written in the Bible.
You should check out you, know, history. The Seleucid Empire, Pompey's role in Palestinian history.

That's right, there is no ancient civilization of Judaists, there is a beginning with the destruction of the pagan Sadducee.

But I am more than willing to be proven wrong, why don't you show me a history link?

I am saying, show me what Josephus saw.
And BTW - this OP is about the validity of the DSS, keep that in mind
Have you come across any serious scholars or published works of any description that suggests such a late date for the books of the Hebrew scriptures?
Have you come across any unbiased parties who says they weren't?
Besides, the dating of the scrolls? Besides no other copies? Besides the Seleucid Empire... well, I guess, aside from that, I haven't really looked.
Last edited by Willum on Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:36 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls

Post #7

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 5 by showme]

Everyone says or assumes they were around for millenia.
Investigation reveals they were not around that long at all.

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