Challenge, prove that Jesus is "God"

[Elijah John]

I have a challenge for Trinitarians. Prove that Jesus Christ is God from Scripture. But here's the rub, do so without using any references from the Gospel of John, or any of the Epistles or the Book of Revelation.

Can you do it?

[shnarkle]

Probably to show that ultimately, one cannot come in contact with JHVH without losing their life.

IF that is true, isn't that evidence that Jesus is not YHVH? After all, many came in contact with him.....and lived.

A good point, but if we look at the name's meaning "I will be", and notice that God is the source of all that exists, it stands to reason that one cannot return to the source of life without losing one's life. This is the central feature of the gospels. "Those who would save their lives will lose them"; 'deny yourself" etc.

Jesus discovers that who JHVH will be is who he is. e.g. "I am".

Also, since we believers are temples of the Holy Spirit of YHVH, why aren't we all destroyed for it?

For the same reason, the temple wasn't destroyed when God's presence dwelt within it. The two are still being distinguished even though one dwells within the other. it is only when one has separated themselves from God's presence though sin, that one can come into contact objectively and die.

I reject the notion that YHVH is unapproachable except though mediation. That does not seem to be what Jesus taught,

Then there is no need for "the way" which is the immediate process itself.

Jesus taught direct access, that YHVH was our approachable Father,

Sure, but your own statements point out that there must be a "way" in order for one to approach God in the first place. There is no approach if one is already God, therefore there must be a mediator; a process of mediation.

bypassing the Temple and the Priesthood. (again the LORD's prayer and the Parables are evidence for this.) As did John, who performed "baptisms of repentance for the forgiveness of sins" outside of Temple jurisdiction. The notion that YHVH is unapproachable seems to be a scare tactic invented by Priests to bolster their power.

It isn't a scare tactic if one is in a state of defilement. It matter little where one repents as long as they do repent. The problem is that the Priests weren't just being supported through the temple services. They were enriching themselves. God provides, but God doesn't enrich some at the expense of others.

[polonius]

More proof that Jesus Christ is God.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (Gen 1:27)

Peace.

RESPONSE:

Exactly how does this prove that Jesus Christ is God?

[EBA]

More proof that Jesus Christ is God.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (Gen 1:27)

Peace.

RESPONSE:

Exactly how does this prove that Jesus Christ is God?

Is a female considered to be "man"?

[EBA]

Is a female considered to be "man"?

Yes a female is considered "man."

According to scripture, is the female submissive to the male?

[Sojournerofthearth]

I have a challenge for Trinitarians. Prove that Jesus Christ is God from Scripture. But here's the rub, do so without using any references from the Gospel of John, or any of the Epistles or the Book of Revelation.

Can you do it?

So.... did anyone ever manage to prove that Jesus was God? Why can't you use the Book of John or the Epistles?

Personally, I believe the bible, in its entirety, all points in the same direction, which is that God created man to be in His Image. But to find out what the bible says on a subject, it has its own rules. It says you use it forward and backward, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little... I use it all. One thing proves another, back and forth, here and there, with concepts and references laying bricks upon bricks built upon the foundation of God's word.

David says in the Psalms 110:1 The Lord said to my Lord, sit you at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool. (David was king, his only Lord was God and yet, it says his Lord had a Lord) In Verse 4 of the same Psalm, the Lord has sworn and will not repent, you are a priest forever, after the order of Melchisedek... Abraham paid tithes to him, and in Matthew it says, before Abraham was, I am... indicating an eternal being. In Isaiah 54.5 “For your Maker is your husband, The LORD of hosts is His name.� Translating literally from the Hebrew, it should read: “For your Makers [are] your husbands.� coupled with Genesis 1:26 And God saith, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness... you don't like John, but I remind you in John 1:1 in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word Was God. Going back to John 5:37, no one ever saw the Father's face or heard his voice... and as you think of the many examples where that occurred, If you go to 1st Cor. 10:4 says that the Rock they looked to was Christ and if you go over to Phil 2:6-7 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God,  but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made, and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death—death even of a cross. (YLT) Referring back to Job again, where it says, Job 35:10, “But no one says, Where is God my Maker…?� In the original, it says, “Where is God my Makers?� Or in Ecclesiastes 12:1 reads, “Remember now your Creator in the days of your youth.� In the original Hebrew, the word for “Creator� is in the plural, which should be translated as “Creators.� Or Proverbs 9:10 states, “The fear of the LORD (is) the beginning of wisdom; and the knowledge of the Holy Ones.

I'm not particularly interested in convincing you... there are many varying schools of thought I read in the 14 pages I combed through. I know I cheated per your rules, but it was a good study for me, it is enough proof for me and that's just off the top of my head... Besides, the only sacrifice that would pay the penalties incurred for all the sins of all mankind, would be that the very one who created man, came down in the form of man, as the second Adam, because the first Adam did not fulfill what he was created to do, which was to take rulership of the world back from Satan. So as the second Adam, he overcame Satan and paid our ransom to the one who was the ruler of this present age... according to the Bible, if one is so inclined.

Soj

[postroad]

[[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 40fca5925d]Replying to post 132 by Sojournerofthearth[/url

Is authority the same as being?

New International Version (NIV)

15 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.[a]

16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.�

17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.�

18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.�

[Elijah John]

I have a challenge for Trinitarians. Prove that Jesus Christ is God from Scripture. But here's the rub, do so without using any references from the Gospel of John, or any of the Epistles or the Book of Revelation.

Can you do it?

So.... did anyone ever manage to prove that Jesus was God? Why can't you use the Book of John or the Epistles?

I'm trying to make the point that it is pretty much only the Gospel of John and the letters of Paul which come anywhere close to (indirectly) saying that "Jesus is God".

It is a real challenge to derive this conclusion from the Synoptics.

Yes, the author of Hebrews also seems to suggest that Jesus is God. But then again what credibility can this unknown author bring? After all, he was convinced that his own generation was "in these last days". "These last days" was roughly two thousand years ago.

And the unknown author of Hebrews as not alone in his immanent apocalyptic expectation. Paul seems to have been under the same impression, as was Matthew's Jesus. (16.28)

Welcome (back?) to the site.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 134 by Elijah John]

What do you make of this text?


Acts 20:20-30 New International Version (NIV)

20 You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house. 21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

22 “And now, compelled by the Spirit, I am going to Jerusalem, not knowing what will happen to me there. 23 I only know that in every city the Holy Spirit warns me that prison and hardships are facing me. 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me; my only aim is to finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the good news of God’s grace.

25 “Now I know that none of you among whom I have gone about preaching the kingdom will ever see me again. 26 Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of any of you. 27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. 28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 134 by Elijah John]

Actually one of the clearest texts giving the Spirit it's own personality come from the OT

Ezekiel 2:1-5 New International Version (NIV)

Ezekiel’s Call to Be a Prophet
2 He said to me, “Son of man,[a] stand up on your feet and I will speak to you.� 2 As he spoke, the Spirit came into me and raised me to my feet, and I heard him speaking to me.

3 He said: “Son of man, I am sending you to the Israelites, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against me; they and their ancestors have been in revolt against me to this very day. 4 The people to whom I am sending you are obstinate and stubborn. Say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says.’ 5 And whether they listen or fail to listen—for they are a rebellious people—they will know that a prophet has been among them.

Which references back to this text.

New International Version (NIV)

God’s Angel to Prepare the Way
20 “See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. 22 If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you.

So if Jesus is right and no one has ever seen or heard the Father then this angel is the Spirit who is the Lord.

Exodus 34:4-8 New International Version (NIV)

4 So Moses chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones and went up Mount Sinai early in the morning, as the Lord had commanded him; and he carried the two stone tablets in his hands. 5 Then the Lord came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the Lord. 6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.�

8 Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshiped.

Are you ready to be a Trinitarian yet?

[Elijah John]

Are you ready to be a Trinitarian yet?

Why would anything in those two posts convince me to become a Trinitarian? I see nothing about Jesus supposed Divinity in any of those passages. Do you?

At most, if Moses predicition even applies to Jesus at all, the prophecy most likely means another prophet, not the incarnation of God.

Yes, God's name is in him. Jesus = Yahshua. Yahshua contains "Yah" short for "Yahweh", the name of God.

But "Joshua" is also a theophoric name, and a form of "Yahshua". God's name is in "Joshua" as well.

Does that make Joshua, "God"?.