Challenge, prove that Jesus is "God"

[Elijah John]

I have a challenge for Trinitarians. Prove that Jesus Christ is God from Scripture. But here's the rub, do so without using any references from the Gospel of John, or any of the Epistles or the Book of Revelation.

Can you do it?

[postroad]

[Replying to post 137 by Elijah John]

You're right. Jesus obviously was the biological son of human parents. That much is obvious from the texts showing Mary and his brother's concern that he was insane.

Surely she wouldn't have forgotten that she had conceived miraculously.

My point is that the OT described the Holy Spirit as an entity with its own personality.

While this spiritual entity derived its authority and power from an unseen higher power it was for all practical purposes "God"

I think that this concept was walked back, especially in the book of Isaiah. But it did serve as a foundation to build a Jesus myth.

The Father being the unseen supreme God. The Holy Spirit being the Angel who had the Name in him, and Jesus being the human image born of this Spirit's union with Mary.

[shnarkle]

Personally, I believe the bible, in its entirety, all points in the same direction, which is that God created man to be in His Image. But to find out what the bible says on a subject, it has its own rules. It says you use it forward and backward, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little...

Here's what the text says is the reason:

precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Jesus says the same thing:

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Searching the scriptures will never lead anyone to eternal life. One must implement what they illustrate, but no one will ever do that unless they are drawn to in the first place. Therefore...

40
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

[EBA]

Is a female considered to be "man"?

Yes a female is considered "man."

According to scripture, is the female submissive to the male?

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)

Yes, the man is dominant to the woman who is submissive.

In the very same verse we see that God is dominant to Christ, who is submissive to God.

Where did Eve (woman) come from?

[postroad]

[Replying to post 139 by shnarkle]

Now if all those drawn would come to a consensus. But they are divided and prone to changes. Sometimes they fall away completely. It puts us non elect in a awkward position.
We have to judge according to the level of proof Jesus suggested.


John 17:20-21 New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Prays for All Believers
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

[polonius]

For those who researh the question, they will find that Matthew (c.80 AD), Mark (c.70 AD) and Luke (c. 80 AD) all describe Jesus as being the Messiah, and rarely the "son of God". An honorary title.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14142b.htm Catholic Encyclopedia

The title "son of God" was applied in the Old Testament to persons having any special relationship with God. Angels, just and pious men, the descendants of Seth, were called "sons of God" (Job 1:6; 2:1; Psalm 89:7; Wisdom 2:13; etc.). In a similar manner it was given to Israelites (Deuteronomy 14:50); and of Israel, as a nation, we read: "And thou shalt say to him: Thus saith the Lord: Israel is my son, my firstborn. I have said to thee: Let my son go, that he may serve me" (Exodus 4:22 sq.).

It wasn't until the mid-80's that Jewish-Christians begn to claim that Jesus was divine himself. This lead to the the Christians being labeled "minim" or aposates and excluded from the Jewish synagogues and "the parting of the ways.". This is recounted in the Gospel of John (c.95 AD).

[postroad]

I have a challenge for Trinitarians. Prove that Jesus Christ is God from Scripture. But here's the rub, do so without using any references from the Gospel of John, or any of the Epistles or the Book of Revelation.

Can you do it?

Here is this text. There are early manuscripts that have Jesus in place of Lord.

Jude 5-7 New International Version (NIV)

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[a] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Footnotes:

Jude 1:5 Some early manuscripts Jesus

[polonius]

I have a challenge for Trinitarians. Prove that Jesus Christ is God from Scripture. But here's the rub, do so without using any references from the Gospel of John, or any of the Epistles or the Book of Revelation.

Can you do it?

Here is this text. There are early manuscripts that have Jesus in place of Lord.

Jude 5-7 New International Version (NIV)

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[a] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Footnotes:

Jude 1:5 Some early manuscripts Jesus

RESPONSE: I think is is pretty much common knowledge now, that the first 7 books of the bible (including Exodus) was a Hebrew legend written between 800 and 500 B.C.

There is no archaeological or historical writings that the Hebrews were ever in Egypt nor had an Exodus.

Consult the histories and archaeological publications of Tel Aviv University.

P.S. There is increasing evidence that the Egyptians were the dominant power in Canaan.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 144 by polonius]

They seem to be a foundation myth written by people attempting to legitimize their return and authority in a land they hadn't lived in for 70 years.

Has come in handy.

Regardless the Jesus story relies on them being perfectly accurate to the smallest details.

[EBA]

Is a female considered to be "man"?

Yes a female is considered "man."

According to scripture, is the female submissive to the male?

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)

Yes, the man is dominant to the woman who is submissive.

In the very same verse we see that God is dominant to Christ, who is submissive to God.

Where did Eve (woman) come from?

The woman was taken out of man.

And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken OUT of Man. (Genesis 2:23)

Where did Christ come from?

[EBA]

Is a female considered to be "man"?

Yes a female is considered "man."

According to scripture, is the female submissive to the male?

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)

Yes, the man is dominant to the woman who is submissive.

In the very same verse we see that God is dominant to Christ, who is submissive to God.

Where did Eve (woman) come from?

The woman was taken out of man.

And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken OUT of Man. (Genesis 2:23)

Where did Christ come from?

For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came OUT from God. (John 16:27)

For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came OUT from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. (John 17:8)

And according to scripture, when was it that Christ “came OUT from God?�