Challenge, prove that Jesus is "God"

[Elijah John]

I have a challenge for Trinitarians. Prove that Jesus Christ is God from Scripture. But here's the rub, do so without using any references from the Gospel of John, or any of the Epistles or the Book of Revelation.

Can you do it?

[EBA]

Is a female considered to be "man"?

Yes a female is considered "man."

According to scripture, is the female submissive to the male?

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)

Yes, the man is dominant to the woman who is submissive.

In the very same verse we see that God is dominant to Christ, who is submissive to God.

Where did Eve (woman) come from?

The woman was taken out of man.

And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken OUT of Man. (Genesis 2:23)

Where did Christ come from?

For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came OUT from God. (John 16:27)

For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came OUT from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. (John 17:8)

And according to scripture, when was it that Christ “came OUT from God?�

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (Col 1:15-17)

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (John 17:5)

This is the order of creation:

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Cor 11:3)

Christ first, then man and then woman.

[EBA]

The Word of God shows us that the woman was “taken out of man.� (Gen 2:23)

We are also shown that Christ “came OUT from God� (John 16:27) and was, “the firstborn of every creature,�(Col 1:15) and that “he is before all things, and by him all things consist.�(Col 1:17)

We see that the female is subject to the male just as Christ is subject to God the Father.

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (Gen 1:27)

What image is that? Male and female – dominant and submissive.

Is God male and female? No God is neither, but God is dominant and submissive as in the Father and the Son. (-my Father is greater than I. - John 14:28)

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:- (Gen 1:27)

“-all things were created by him, and for him-� (Col 1:16)

Peace.

[polonius]

The Word of God shows us that the woman was “taken out of man.� (Gen 2:23)

We are also shown that Christ “came OUT from God� (John 16:27) and was, “the firstborn of every creature,�(Col 1:15) and that “he is before all things, and by him all things consist.�(Col 1:17)

We see that the female is subject to the male just as Christ is subject to God the Father.

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (Gen 1:27)

What image is that? Male and female – dominant and submissive.

Is God male and female? No God is neither, but God is dominant and submissive as in the Father and the Son. (-my Father is greater than I. - John 14:28)

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:- (Gen 1:27)

“-all things were created by him, and for him-� (Col 1:16)

Peace.

RESPONSE:

Have you considered that "The Word of God" isn't really the word of God?

My friend Ralph is writing an updated Bible. He is beginning with a writing that says that his new Bible is "God breathed." Should we believe him? If we believe the first person who wrote a Bible , why not?

Is there any real evidence for either claim?

[William]

[Replying to post 97 by shnarkle]

Christ never claims to be God, but instead shows us that our separate identities are nothing more than illusions. The field of psychology confirms this fact in pointing out that our identities are formed while still just infants. They are nothing more than abstract constructions of the mind. They don't exist as anything other than ideas; quite persistent delusional ideas.

This is the crux of the matter and the problem with Judaist-based ideas of GOD.

The argument that Judaism gave the world the best idea of GOD has resulted in this silly argument. That a Judaist can question the validity of the claims of Christianity by creating such subject material as "prove that Jesus is "God" whilst neglecting to place that same criteria on their own beliefs and ideas of 'what GOD is' - in that, when challenged about this, they would rather stay silent and say nothing, most likely because to say anything would betray that underlying hypocrisy.

It might even be construed by the Judaist that anyone demanding that Judaists themselves 'Prove that Yahweh is "GOD", to be nothing more than antisemitism, and thus, 'irrelevant'.

But indeed, it is relevant and worthwhile asking. Getting an answer is another thing indeed. This in itself does not prevent the individual from doing so though. We don't need Judaism to dictate to us 'what is GOD', anyway. Let them remain silently aloof and not open to negotiation regarding the subject.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 151 by William]

In Western, Judeo-Christian culture, and in this TD&D forum, it is assumed that "God" is not an amorphous, panentheistic collective entity.

Rather, that He is the singular Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. Whether that singularity is conceived as an absolute monotheisistic Being, or a Trinitarian one.

Therefore, asking someone to prove that Jesus is God, is not hypocricy, as much as you seem to want to suggest that it is.

And all this talk of the "illusion of a separate self" is more in line with Hinduism and Buddhism, than anything in the Western traditon. Except maybe New Age philosophy or the Occult.

So the OP asks the participant to prove that Jesus is God. Instead, you seem to be intent on challenging the common understanding of God and redefining what that means. In effect, you are not addressing the challenge by reforumlating the question from the challenge to prove Jesus is God, into asking "what is God"?

Your agenda driven comments may be a better fit for a new topic, or on another forum.

Yes, on this forum, the Judeo-Christian view of God is the favored one. The Biblical one. Or should I say, a Biblical one. In that very same Bible I see evidence that only YHVH is God, until we come to small portions of the New Testament, which seem to suggest that Jesus too, is God.

If you see panentheism in the Bible, Old or New Tesament, please demonstrate.

[EBA]

The Word of God shows us that the woman was “taken out of man.� (Gen 2:23)

We are also shown that Christ “came OUT from God� (John 16:27) and was, “the firstborn of every creature,�(Col 1:15) and that “he is before all things, and by him all things consist.�(Col 1:17)

We see that the female is subject to the male just as Christ is subject to God the Father.

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (Gen 1:27)

What image is that? Male and female – dominant and submissive.

Is God male and female? No God is neither, but God is dominant and submissive as in the Father and the Son. (-my Father is greater than I. - John 14:28)

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:- (Gen 1:27)

“-all things were created by him, and for him-� (Col 1:16)

Peace.

RESPONSE:

Have you considered that "The Word of God" isn't really the word of God?

My friend Ralph is writing an updated Bible. He is beginning with a writing that says that his new Bible is "God breathed." Should we believe him? If we believe the first person who wrote a Bible , why not?

Is there any real evidence for either claim?

I wonder if you'll spend so many countless hours trying to debunk your friend Ralph's "updated Bible" as you do trying to debunk the Holy Bible.

Have you ever wondered what drives you to do such a thing?

[polonius]

The Word of God shows us that the woman was “taken out of man.� (Gen 2:23)

We are also shown that Christ “came OUT from God� (John 16:27) and was, “the firstborn of every creature,�(Col 1:15) and that “he is before all things, and by him all things consist.�(Col 1:17)

We see that the female is subject to the male just as Christ is subject to God the Father.

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (Gen 1:27)

What image is that? Male and female – dominant and submissive.

Is God male and female? No God is neither, but God is dominant and submissive as in the Father and the Son. (-my Father is greater than I. - John 14:28)

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:- (Gen 1:27)

“-all things were created by him, and for him-� (Col 1:16)

Peace.

RESPONSE:

Have you considered that "The Word of God" isn't really the word of God?

My friend Ralph is writing an updated Bible. He is beginning with a writing that says that his new Bible is "God breathed." Should we believe him? If we believe the first person who wrote a Bible , why not?

Is there any real evidence for either claim?

I wonder if you'll spend so many countless hours trying to debunk your friend Ralph's "updated Bible" as you do trying to debunk the Holy Bible.

Have you ever wondered what drives you to do such a thing?

RESPONSE: Of course. It's common sense. Those who have worked in the sciences are less tolerant of beliefs lacking a rational basis.

[TwiceBorn]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

On its face this is such a "false dilemma. That is one of the main purposes of the NT to show how it explains and fulfills the OT! So why would anyone need to be required to do so? I actually do believe however that there are at least actually many clear implications that should satisfy any objective, rationale and open-minded person who believes the OT is God inspired. The place to begin is Gen. 1:1, Since almost everyone who has ever read the Bible usually starts at the beginning, which is actually what the name Genesis means, book of beginnings. If a person accepts this very 1st verse as fact, basic logic would say, that it would eliminate any difficulty in believing any of the rest, especially the fact that God would be able to preserve a reliable account of all that He wanted to reveal in written form so that we could readily study and refer to it as a guideline for all of life. That is my 1st premise, but not the main point in order to address your challenge. Since I am not a Hebrew scholar, I will be drawing upon some who are as it is extremely relevant in laying the foundation for all the rest! "In the beginning, GOD created...." I am taking my source as being reliable so you will need to refute with some other Heb. scholar(s). In the Heb. the name God is "Elohim", which stresses His majesty and omnipotence. This is the name used throughout the 1st chapter. The "...im" ending is the Heb. plural ending, so that Elohim can actually mean "gods," and is so translated in various passages referring to the gods of the heathen (e. g., Ps. 96:5).
However, it is clearly used here in the singular, as the mightoy name of God the Creator, the 1st of over 2,000 times where it is used this way. Thus Elohim is a PLURAL NAME with a Singular meaning. Sounds like I have a dilemma, actually not so! It is a "UNI-PLURAL NOUN, this doesn't prove, but does strongly suggest the uni-plurality of the Godhead. God IS ONE, yet MORE THAN ONE. The Christian view, One God, Jehovah, one in Essence, but revealed in three Persons, NOT 3 gods!! I will elaborate as time permits in much greater detail with numerous OT passages that I believe can be clearly shown to refer to both Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit and then I also will propose the logic and the extremely negative of a totally Singular god vs the clearly delightful and meaningful relationship that is logical and preferable in the purely consequential regard, in the intended "fellowship" that God created us, mankind for!!!
I have to leave soon, so just want to jump to another key v. "Let Us make man in OUR IMAGE, AFTER OUR LIKENESS"!! I think it is clear where I am going and should be clear the implications of this verse?!! Much more to come, later today?!