What type of design is this?

OnceConvinced · Post by **OnceConvinced** » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:38 pm

Presuming God is real and presuming demons and Satan is real...

Presuming God created them as angels and then the ones that rebelled became the demons, let by Satan himself. These fallen angels became so corrupt that they became completely evil, with no redeeming features at all.

So God created these beings and for whatever reason they became pure evil. Yet God, even if he didn't know for sure, had a good idea they would become that way. Yet he created them anyway, knowing they would be come corrupted and turn against him.

Or maybe he had no idea at all? Maybe their corruption was a complete surprise to him?

The thing is for them to become corrupt, they must have been designed in such a way that would allow them to become corrupt.

So....
What sort of design would this be?

Malevolent?
Incompetent?
Intelligent?

Please justify your answer.

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:03 pm

Can God create God?

How can a created being not be flawed?

Divine Insight · Post by **Divine Insight** » Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:28 pm

Wootah wrote: Can God create God?

How can a created being not be flawed?

How can a perfect creator create anything less than a perfect creation?

And besides, isn't it the Biblical position that God created a perfect Earth and "Saw that it was good". And wasn't the Garden of Eden also supposed to be perfect before humans fell from grace?

Isn't there an extreme contradiction in this religion that tries to pin all the evil in the world onto humans, but proclaims God to be without a flaw?

What will it take to get theists to realize that this religious paradigm simply cannot be defended as being anything remotely reasonable?

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:09 pm

Divine Insight wrote:
Wootah wrote: Can God create God?

How can a created being not be flawed?
How can a perfect creator create anything less than a perfect creation?

And besides, isn't it the Biblical position that God created a perfect Earth and "Saw that it was good". And wasn't the Garden of Eden also supposed to be perfect before humans fell from grace?

Isn't there an extreme contradiction in this religion that tries to pin all the evil in the world onto humans, but proclaims God to be without a flaw?

What will it take to get theists to realize that this religious paradigm simply cannot be defended as being anything remotely reasonable?

Q:How can a perfect creator create anything less than a perfect creation?

A: think about it. Only God is perfect.

Q: And besides, isn't it the Biblical position that God created a perfect Earth and "Saw that it was good". And wasn't the Garden of Eden also supposed to be perfect before humans fell from grace?

A: Good not perfect. Good enough for sure.

Q: Isn't there an extreme contradiction in this religion that tries to pin all the evil in the world onto humans, but proclaims God to be without a flaw?

A: No contradiction. Ive never quite believed you understand what contradictions are.

Q: What will it take to get theists to realize that this religious paradigm simply cannot be defended as being anything remotely reasonable?

A: better atheist debaters?

Divine Insight · Post by **Divine Insight** » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:21 am

Wootah wrote: Q:How can a perfect creator create anything less than a perfect creation?

A: think about it. Only God is perfect.

What kind of nonsense is this?

If God was the only thing that existed in the very beginning, and God was perfect, then how could anything that God creates be imperfect?

To just say that only God is perfect is nothing but gibberish. It's just an empty claim that has no reason for being true.

Wootah wrote: Q: And besides, isn't it the Biblical position that God created a perfect Earth and "Saw that it was good". And wasn't the Garden of Eden also supposed to be perfect before humans fell from grace?

A: Good not perfect. Good enough for sure.

In Christianity anything less than perfect is not good enough for the Christian God. Or have you forgotten about that?

Wootah wrote: Q: Isn't there an extreme contradiction in this religion that tries to pin all the evil in the world onto humans, but proclaims God to be without a flaw?

A: No contradiction. Ive never quite believed you understand what contradictions are.

Of course there is a contradiction in proclaiming that a supposedly perfect creator can only create evil people.

And you're asking me if I understand what a contradiction is?

In fact, have you even thought about this at all? According to Christianity the Christian God couldn't even create so much as a single solitary human who was perfect. That's a 100% failure rate as a creator.

So you seem to be overlooking the fact that the Christian God cannot be said to be perfect since he can't even create a perfect human.

Wootah wrote: Q: What will it take to get theists to realize that this religious paradigm simply cannot be defended as being anything remotely reasonable?

A: better atheist debaters?

I don't see how the atheist's debates could get much better than they already are. It's the theists who have the problems. In fact, even the theists recognize their "Problem of Evil". Keep in mind that there is no such thing as a "Problem of Evil" for an atheist. Sure, an atheist may not like bad things happening, but that's beside the point. The point is that this is not a problem for their worldview. In fact, an imperfect world is precisely what is expected from a natural accident.

If the world was created by a perfect creator we should expect the world to be perfect.

Recognize also that even if all humans where removed from planet earth the world would still be far from perfect. There would still be animals eating each other, horrible diseases, and natural disasters.

So humans really have nothing at all to do with the fact that the world isn't perfect. Humans can be removed entirely and the world would still be filled with nasty stuff.

So trying to pin the blame for an imperfect world onto humans instead of onto their "Creator God", if they had one, is nonsense.

Secularism has no problems. The world is precisely as secularism would predict that it should be.

~~~~~

And let's not forget what OC said in the OP. The Christian God had supposedly already created evil creatures even before he created humans. And apparently they were so evil that even God couldn't heal them.

That's a creator God who can't even fix things when they are broken.

And pretty inept God by any measure. He's apparently as helpless as mortal human parents when it comes to healing his own children.

There's just no defense for these ancient absurd religious myths. They simply couldn't be anymore absurd if they tried.

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:30 am

[Replying to post 5 by Divine Insight]

1) Only God is perfect seems quite reasonable and quite standard.

2) Because the standard is perfection we can know Jesus is God.

3) Nor can God create square circles or married bachelors. Logical inconsistencies are not relevant.

4) The lack of a problem of evil is the problem for atheists.

Logic is hard DI. Calling something absurd is absurdly easy.

Bust Nak · Post by **Bust Nak** » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:28 am

Wootah wrote: Can God create God?

You tell me, is God creating God a logical contradiction, it doesn't appear so at a glance.

How can a created being not be flawed?

By being the product of a perfect creator.

Q:How can a perfect creator create anything less than a perfect creation?

A: think about it. Only God is perfect.

Thinking about it, along with the premise that perfect creator can only create perfection, it means God can only create perfect copies of God.

A: Good not perfect. Good enough for sure.

Good enough to sink the perfect creator premise.

rikuoamero · Post by **rikuoamero** » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:48 am

[Replying to post 1 by OnceConvinced]

Given what you say in the OP...I vote Incompetent. I obviously cannot vote Intelligent so I won't even comment on that, but my reason for not voting Malevolent is that you did not indicate in the OP that this God blames his creations for being what they are, assigns punishments, curses to them, expects his creations to repent for being what they are, what they were created to be.

1213 · Post by **1213** » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:14 pm

OnceConvinced wrote: ...
What sort of design would this be?

Malevolent?
Incompetent?
Intelligent?

Please justify your answer.

Malevolent and incompetent design can be also intelligent design. So, I think your question is not very intelligent. But obviously, the point seems to be to preach the antigod propaganda and not ...

However, giving freedom is not in my opinion malevolent, even though it can lead to bad situations. I think it is nice that God is not like fascist. And I think He is very intelligent, because He could allow also the evil exist and even though they are against God, they serve God.

rikuoamero · Post by **rikuoamero** » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:18 pm

1213 wrote:
OnceConvinced wrote: ...
What sort of design would this be?

Malevolent?
Incompetent?
Intelligent?

Please justify your answer.
Malevolent and incompetent design can be also intelligent design. So, I think your question is not very intelligent. But obviously, the point seems to be to preach the antigod propaganda and not ...

However, giving freedom is not in my opinion malevolent, even though it can lead to bad situations. I think it is nice that God is not like fascist. And I think He is very intelligent, because He could allow also the evil exist and even though they are against God, they serve God.

You seem to be operating under a mode of thinking where either God allows total freedom, or if he restricts it, then he's a fascist.

Is our modern justice system fascistic simply because a cop will arrest you for attempting to murder someone else, and a judge will imprison you?

Debating Christianity and Religion